March 21, 2023, at 4:15 PM

Original link

The special meeting was called to order at 4:15 PM.

1.   Disclosures of Pecuniary Interest

That it BE NOTED that no pecuniary interests were disclosed.

2.   Consent

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by C. Rahman

That Items 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.5 and 2.7 to 2.9 BE APPROVED.

Motion Passed (6 to 0)

2.1   2nd Report of the Accessibility Community Advisory Committee

2023-02-23 ACAC - Report

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by C. Rahman

That the 2nd Report of the Accessibility Community Advisory Committee, from the meeting held on February 23, 2023, BE RECEIVED.

Motion Passed

2.2   Integrated Employment Services - Ontario Transfer Payment Agreement - Update

2023-03-21 SR - Integrated Employment Services - Ontario Transfer Payment Agreement - Update - Full

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by C. Rahman

That, on the recommendation of the Deputy City Manager, Social and Health Development, the proposed by-law, as appended to the staff report dated March 21, 2023, BE INTRODUCED at the Municipal Council meeting being held on April 4, 2023, to:

a)    delegate authority to the City Manager and the Deputy City Manager, Social and Health Development to approve amending agreements to the Ontario Transfer Payment Agreement – Integrated Employment Services effective as of February 1, 2023, as appended to the above-noted by-law, further agreements with the Province that relate to the above-noted Agreement and to Integrated Employment Services and agreements with existing and new Employment Ontario and Ontario Disability Support Program Services Providers, and other service providers, that relate to the above-noted Agreement and to the Integrated Employment Services on the condition that they are consistent with the requirements contained in the above-noted Agreement, and that do not require additional funding or are provided for in the City’s current budget and that do not increase the indebtedness or contingent liabilities of The Corporation of the City of London, subject to prior review and approval by the City Treasurer or a written designate of the City Treasurer;

b)    delegate authority to the Deputy City Manager, Social and Health Development to approve non-agreement documents  that may be required and delegate authority to the City Manager and the Deputy City Manager, Social and Health Development to execute the above-noted non-agreement documents;

c)    ratify the Transfer Payment Agreement for Integrated Employment Services, with effect February 1, 2023, as appended to the above-noted by-law; and,

d)    delegate authority to the Deputy City Manager, Social and Health Development, or their written designates, to oversee the design, planning and delivery of Integrated Employment Services as Service System Manager. (2023-S05)

Motion Passed

2.3   Targeted Expansion of Licensed Child Care Through the Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement

2023-03-21 SR Targeted Expansion of Licensed Child Care

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by C. Rahman

That, on the recommendation of the Deputy City Manager, Social and Health Development, the following actions be taken with respect to the staff report, dated March 21, 2023, related to the Targeted Expansion of Licensed Child Care through the Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement:

a)    the above-noted staff report BE RECEIVED; and,

b)    the Civic Administration BE DIRECTED to append Appendix A of the above-noted staff report to the London-Middlesex Child Care and Early Years Service System Plan, 2019-2023. (2023-S01)

Motion Passed

2.5   London Fire Department Emergency Tanker Repair

2023-03-21 SR - London Fire Department Emergency Tanker Repair

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by C. Rahman

That, on the recommendation of the Deputy City Manager, Neighbourhood and Community-Wide Services, the staff report, dated March 21, 2023, with respect to the London Fire Department Emergency Tanker Repair, BE RECEIVED. (2023-P16)

Motion Passed

2.7   Infrastructure Update - Glen Cairn Outdoor Pool

2023-03-21 SR - Infrastructure Update – Glen Cairn Outdoor Pool

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by C. Rahman

That, on the recommendation of the Deputy City Manager, Neighbourhood and Community-Wide Services and the Deputy City Manager, Finance Supports, the staff report, dated March 21, 2023, related to an Infrastructure Update on the Glen Cairn Outdoor Pool, BE RECEIVED. (2023-R05)

Motion Passed

2.8   SS-2023-089 - Single Source Procurement to Deliver the 345 Sylvan Street Rapid Housing Initiative (RHI) Round 3 Project

2023-03-21 SR SS Procurement - 345 Sylvan Street Rapid Housing Initiative Round 3 Project - Part 1

2023-03-21 SR SS Procurement - 345 Sylvan Street Rapid Housing Initiative Round 3 Project - Part 2

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by C. Rahman

That, on the recommendation of the Deputy City Manager, Planning and Economic Development, the following actions be taken with respect to the staff report, dated March 21. 2023, related to a Single Source Procurement to deliver the 345 Sylvan Street Rapid Housing Initiative (RHI) Round 3 Project (SS-2023-089):

a)    a single source procurement, in accordance with s. 14.4(g) of the Procurement of Goods and Services Policy and associated design-build contract, BE APPROVED to EllisDon Corporation (“EllisDon”) for the design and construction of a new multi-residential affordable rental housing development at 345 Sylvan Street at the fixed price of $17,236,735.00 (excluding HST);

b)    the proposed by-law, as appended to the above-noted staff report, BE INTRODUCED at the Municipal Council meeting to be held on April 4, 2023, to:

i)    approve the CCDC 14 Design-Build Stipulated Price Contract Agreement between The Corporation of the City of London and EllisDon Corporation for the New Multi-Residential Modular Affordable Rental Housing Development at 345 Sylvan Street, as appended to the above-noted by-law;

ii)    authorize the Mayor and the City Clerk to execute the above-noted Agreement;

iii)    delegate authority to the Deputy City Manager, Planning and Economic Development to authorize and approve amendments to the above-noted Agreement, including amending agreements, that do not require additional funding or are provided for in the City’s current budget and that do not increase the indebtedness or contingent liability of The Corporation of the City of London; and,

iv)    authorize the Mayor and the City Clerk to execute any amendments to the above-noted Agreement, including amending agreements, approved by the Deputy City Manager, Planning and Economic Development, pursuant to section 3 of the above-noted by-law;

c)    the Sources of Financing Report, as appended to the above-noted staff report, BE APPROVED;

d)    the Civic Administration BE AUTHORIZED to undertake all administrative acts necessary in connection with this purchase;

e)    the Civic Administration BE AUTHORIZED to undertake all administrative acts necessary to prepare an Operations Plan and Budget and to align a future building operator to manage the future affordable rental housing development at 345 Sylvan Street; and,

f)    the Deputy City Manager, Planning and Economic Development BE AUTHORIZED to approve amendments or amending agreements associated with the above-noted Agreement and future building operator. (2023-S11)

Motion Passed

2.9   Appointment of Hearings Officers to Property Standards Committee

2023-03-21 SR - Appointment of Hearings Officers to Property Standards Committee

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by C. Rahman

That, on the recommendation of the City Clerk, the proposed by-law, as appended to the staff report, dated March 21, 2023, BE INTRODUCED at the Municipal Council meeting to be held on April 4, 2023, to amend By-law No. CP-24, being “A by-law to provide standards for the maintenance and occupancy of property and to repeal By-law CP-16” to repeal and replace Schedule “A”. (2023-L01)

Motion Passed

2.4   Unity Project Relocation Capital Support Contract Amendment

2023-03-21 SR Unity Project Relocation Capital Support Contract Amendment

Moved by J. Pribil

Seconded by C. Rahman

That, on the recommendation of the Deputy City Manager, Social and Health Development, the following actions be taken with respect the staff report, dated March 21, 2023, related to the Unity Project Relocation Capital Support Contract Amendment:

a)    a one-time contract amendment, as per The Corporation of the City of London Procurement of Goods and Services Policy Section 20.3.e, BE APPROVED at a total estimated cost of $762,000 to support the Unity Project for the Relief of Homelessness, Temporary Hotel Accommodations, in the amount of $62,000 and the Unity Project for the Relief of Homelessness, Existing Shelter Capital Retrofits, in the amount of $700,000;

b)    the Civic Administration BE AUTHORIZED to undertake all administrative acts which are necessary in relation to this project, and;

c)    the approval given, herein, BE CONDITIONAL upon the Corporation amending a Purchase of Service Agreement.

it being noted that a verbal delegation and a communication, as appended to the Added Agenda, from C. Lazenby, Unity Project, with respect to this matter, were received. (2023-S11)

Motion Passed (6 to 0)

Additional Votes:

Moved by C. Rahman

Seconded by J. Pribil

Motion to approve the delegation request by C. Lazenby, Unity Project, to be heard at this meeting.

Motion Passed (6 to 0)

2.6   Infrastructure Update - Thames Outdoor Pool

2023-03-21 SR - Infrastructure Update – Thames Outdoor Pool

Moved by D. Ferreira

Seconded by J. Pribil

That the Civic Administration BE DIRECTED to do the following with respect to the Thames Outdoor Pool Infrastructure Update:

a)    provide a report by the end of June 2023 to the Community and Protective Services Committee (CPSC) to identify options and associated costs to re-open the Thames Pool with sufficient repairs for safe operation in time for summer 2024;

b)    conduct a thorough community engagement process starting in Q2 of 2023, and provide the results to Council by the end of Q3 of 2023; it being noted that the engagement process will include soliciting feedback on pool vs. splash pad, indoor pool vs. outdoor, pool size and type etc.;

c)    develop a comprehensive staff report, to come to Council in 2024, including all available options and estimated costs for the future of the Thames Pool if rebuilt or relocated, noting the importance of equitable access across the city, options to include, but not limited to:

  •    rebuilding a pool in Thames Park that can withstand extreme weather conditions;

  •    seeking out a new location for a pool;

  •    future potential uses for the recreational opportunities for Thames Park should Thames Pool be decommissioned; and,

  •    funding opportunities from other levels of government and private fundraising;

d)    after the above-noted staff report has been completed, offer another opportunity for community input via a public participation meeting on the report findings; and,

e)    provide a report back to a future meeting of the (CPSC) regarding the Thames Pool Report that was intended to identify the likely causes of the Thames Pool failure and propose potential solutions to remedy concerns;

it being noted that communications from C. Smith, M. Cooke, J. McCall and N. Philips, as appended to the Added Agenda, with respect to this matter, were received. (2023-R05)

Motion Passed (6 to 0)

Additional Votes:

Moved by C. Rahman

Seconded by S. Stevenson

Motion to approve the delegation request by C. Smith to be heard at this meeting.

Motion Passed (6 to 0)

3.   Scheduled Items

None.

4.   Items for Direction

4.1   REQUEST FOR DELEGATION STATUS - J. Salisbury - Subsidized Bus Pass Program

2023-03-21 Sub. Request for Delegation - Subdisized Transit - J. Salisbury

Moved by S. Stevenson

Seconded by J. Pribil

That the verbal delegation and communication, as appended to the Agenda, from J. Salisbury, with respect to a Subsidized Bus Pass Program, BE RECEIVED.

Motion Passed (6 to 0)

Additional Votes:

Moved by D. Ferreira

Seconded by C. Rahman

Motion to approve the request for delegation by J. Salisbury to be heard at this meeting.

Motion Passed (5 to 0)

4.2   Mayor J. Morgan, Councillors A. Hopkins and S. Franke - Support for Resolutions to End Homelessness from OBCM (Ontario’s Big City Mayors) and AMO (Association of Municipalities Ontario)

2023-03-21 Sub. Support for resolutions to end Homelessness - Mayor - Part 1

2023-03-21 Sub. Support for resolutions to end Homelessness - Mayor - Part 2

2023-03-21 Sub. Support for resolutions to end Homelessness - Mayor - Part 3

Moved by Mayor J. Morgan

Seconded by C. Rahman

That the Mayor BE DIRECTED to call upon the Provincial Government to urgently:

a)    acknowledge that homelessness in Ontario is a social, economic and health crisis;

b)    commit to ending homelessness in Ontario; and,

c)    work with the Association of Municipalities Ontario (AMO) and a broad range of community, health, Indigenous and economic partners to develop, resource and implement an action plan to achieve this goal;

it being noted that a copy of this motion will be sent to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the Minister of Children, Community and Social Services, the Minister of Health and the Association of Municipalities of Ontario.

Motion Passed (6 to 0)

5.   Deferred Matters/Additional Business

None.

6.   Adjournment

The meeting adjourned at 5:59 PM.

Full Transcript

Transcript provided by Lillian Skinner’s London Council Archive. Note: This is an automated speech-to-text transcript and may contain errors. Speaker names are not identified.

View full transcript (1 hour, 54 minutes)

Good afternoon, Glenn. Good afternoon, Glenn. Hi, I think I just got to put in no longer needed. Okay, all right, thank you.

All right, take care. Good afternoon, this is the sixth meeting in the Community and Strategic Services Committee. The city of London is situated on the traditional land, so that it’s not back. Haudenosaunee, Napwok, and Adwandran.

We honor and respect the history, language, and culture, the diverse indigenous people who call this territory home. The city of London is currently home to many First Nation, Métis, and Inuit people today. As representatives of the people of the city of London, we are grateful to have the opportunity to work and live in this territory. All members of this committee are currently present in chambers, just for anyone joining us virtually, or in the gallery, those committee members would be myself, Councillor Stevenson, Pribble, Raman Ferra, and Mayor Morgan sits on every committee that he likes to, so he’s joined us today as well.

The city of London is committed to making every effort to provide alternate formats and communication supports for meetings upon request. To make a request specific to this meeting, please contact CPSC@london.ca, or 519-661-2489, extension 2425. I’m looking to committee for any disclosures of pecuniary interest. Seeing none, just to make sure that we’re all off the same agenda, there is an added agenda.

With some extra corresponds and delegation requests on it, looking to the consent agenda, there are nine items on it. 2.4 will be pulled as we have a request for delegation status, and 2.6 will be pulled as there’s a request for delegation status on there, looking to committee to see if there’s any other reminding items between 2.1 and 2.9 that you would like to dealt with separate. And as a reminder, questions could always be asked, it’s just for different votes. Seeing none, I will look for a mover in a second or to put consent items 2.1 through to 2.9 on the floor with the exception of item 2.4, being the Unity Project relocation and couple support contract amendment and 2.6, the infrastructure update for the Thames outdoor pool.

Moved by Councillor Stevenson, seconded by Councillor ramen. Looking to committee to see if there’s any questions on items 2.1 through to 2.9, noting those two exclusions. I will, sorry, lights are just, I will start my speakers list with Councillor McAllister. Thank you and through the chair.

It will be speaking on 2.7, and I just want to extend my thanks to staff for working really hard on the Glen Karen outdoor pool. It means a great deal to the community, and I’m ecstatic to see that we’ve been able to find the money in the existing budget to do the necessary repairs to reopen this very important facility. So I just wanted to say thank you, and I really look forward to seeing that pool reopen. Thank you.

Councillor Stevenson, did you have your hand up as well? Okay, and then anyone else currently, Councillor Stevenson would be concluding my speaker’s list. So anyone else, please let me know. Thank you and through the chair.

I just had a quick question on 2.8 for 345 Silver Street. Page 175, 2.4 is the operations plan, and it’s about finding an operating partner to manage the completed project. And I was just wondering for information purposes when we have properties like this, is there a manager that we usually do? Does it go out to tender?

Does any information would be helpful? Thank you and to staff. Through the chair, Matt Felberg, who’s leading this project is on the line, so he’s gonna be providing our response. Thank you, welcome, Mr.

Felberg, please proceed. Thank you, Madam Chair and through you. Typically, we’d be looking to partner with folks like LMCH, which is our community housing corporation. But in the event that we’re looking for a different model, like a supportive housing or something like that, we might go out with a different group to provide the operations.

Councillor Stevenson. Okay, looking for further speakers on the consent items 2.1 through to 2.9, was standing 2.4 and 2.6, saying none, calling the question. I will manually vote yes, as I’m having e-scribe issues. Councillor Stevenson.

I’ll vote yes as well. Supposing the vote, the motion carries, six to zero. Thank you, that moves us on to 2.4, being the unique project relocation of capital support contract amendment. There’s a request for delegation status as the executive address director of uni project is with us in chambers today.

So looking to committee to see if we would allow five minutes for the delegation to be received to date this meeting, moved by Councillor Ramen, seconded by Councillor Pribble. So welcome, oh, sorry. We’re just gonna vote that you can speak, and then IT is gonna get your microphone going. And just for IT upper, you’re the main mic on the right side.

I’m manually voting yes. Councillor Stevenson. I’ll vote yes as well. Supposing the vote, the motion carries, six to zero.

Thank you. Welcome to chambers for anyone falling around online or here in chambers. The information that corresponds with this report starts on page 150 of your agenda packages. Welcome to committee.

Thank you for making time to be with us here in person today and you have five minutes to proceed as you will. Thank you for allowing me to speak to this proposal today. Really appreciate that. And I’d also like to say thank you very much to Councillor Ramen and Pribble and Stevenson for attending on site at the Unity Project today for our candid conversation and getting a better understanding of kind of what we’re looking to do.

I’m sorry that my phone’s in front of me, but I left all my notes on the print trip. So anyway, we’re just gonna do the best we can with what I got here. So I wanted to start with is to let you know that this is not a new program, okay? It sounds new.

It sounds like something really different. It’s a new configuration of space, but it is not at all much different than the emergency shelter programming that we’ve been doing for the past 20 plus years. So Unity Project owns the property at 717, 719, 721, Dundas Street. And we, prior to the pandemic, operated our emergency shelter out of the back building on that property.

The front building is supportive housing that we run. And within that context, we had 37 emergency shelter beds. There were two different types of accommodations. One was we had 22 what dorm style beds where people could access the space 24 hours a day, seven days a week, until their stay was up.

And then we had what we did was we converted common spaces into beds at night and had 15 first-come, first-served beds. And so there were 37 beds total that we would accommodate an emergency shelter in that building, very small building, very crowded building. But that’s what we were doing prior to the pandemic. The pandemic hit and our building was just insufficient to survive a pandemic.

And certainly there was no opportunity for social distancing. You could maybe have 10 people in that building for adequate social distancing, let alone opportunity for isolation or staff to feel safe or participants to feel safe. And literally overnight, we reconfigured our operations into a hotel space, nearly doubling our occupancy and supporting individuals who were medically compromised in a way that would make them more vulnerable to COVID, people with pets and couples. And we’ve been in that hotel for the past three years.

And we’ve known that our funding for the hotel is going to come up at the end of March. We’ve known that for some time. We spent the better part of last year trying to figure out a solution of where we could move to from the hotel and not go back to our old facility. Because it’s too small.

It’s too small to provide the type of emergency shelter accommodations and support that we want to with dignity and in a safe way and in reducing barriers. And so we looked and we looked hard. We engaged city staff, we engaged developers. And there was no space that we could find that wouldn’t cost us a million dollars to renovate.

And then also lease costs on top of that. And that kind of brought us back to looking at our location that we actually own, right? And we became informed about these pallet structures, which kind of changed the perception of maybe what was possible on our property. ‘Cause we don’t want to put 37 people in that building.

Again, it doesn’t work. It’s not healthy, it’s not safe, it’s not dignified. But if we could utilize the outdoor property, that is off the street, it’s between two buildings, it’s our parking lot, to provide outdoor accommodations or these small structures that we could continue to accommodate as many people. And the pallet structures are purpose built and engineered in a way that adequately serves people experiencing homelessness.

We haven’t found kind of a small structure that we felt was adequate for this purpose. They’re certainly not permanent homes, but they work well for a transitional kind of space. They are also cheap. I know that there’s maybe a wrong number in the report, but they’re about $25,000 each.

And include like mattresses, fire extinguishers, the heating and cooling units, they’re going to be attached to electricity. And they’re a way that we can extend the use of our property to continue to accommodate people while we look for a more permanent solution for our facility. So it’s not the pallet structures themselves that we really wanna like, if there was an alternative solution for us, we would prefer that. We would prefer a fully indoor solution.

But this is what we could manage within what was available to us. And certainly for us, it’s the most cost effective. 30 seconds. Because we’re not paying a lease to someone else.

And this one time cost will carry us for at least the next three years while we seek a more permanent solution. Thank you so much for that and staying great on time. Amazing. At this time, we just need one moment.

So please stay at the mic or you’re close to it anyways. Just have a seat for a moment, just having some issue getting our Zoom feed with mic audio going. So just a moment before we proceed at council. Recording in progress.

Okay, looking to committee. Are you available to answer any questions? If committee has it, yes. Okay, so perfect.

She’s willing to field some questions. So if anyone committee has questions, I go to committee first for questions. And then we have a number of visiting counselors with us today and then I get to them if they have questions that haven’t been answered already. So I will start a speaker’s list.

Should there be questions? Okay, I’m gonna start. If anyone just wants to indicate they have questions, I’ll put you on the list. But I will start my list with Councillor Stevenson.

Thank you and through the chair. I’m just wondering if there’s other locations where this has been done and has been successful. Is that to staff or to our guest? To our guest, yes.

I feel like I’m dancing up here going back. Yeah, this has, pilot structures have been used primarily in the States in a number of different communities. And they’re starting to come to Canada to be used more often. So I haven’t actually been able to visit a place where they’ve been used, but they’ve been used quite a lot.

I think there’s over 3000 structures that have been utilized through this company. Councillor Stevenson? Not actually maybe to staff any safety concerns or anything with this new model. Is that just for clarification?

For people or for the building codes themselves? For the people. Thank you to staff, Mr. Dickinson?

Through the chair, know that these products actually have a pretty extensive safety record and safety precautions built in, including fire extinguishers, smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors, emergency rear egress, slip resistant floors, rain gutters, things like that. Follow-up? Yeah, more of a comment than a question. I just wanted to say thank you to the Unity Project because they reached out, spent an hour and a half with me a couple of weeks ago, answered all of my questions.

Very frank, very informative for me. We were there today again for another hour. And there was just a, for me, this is exactly what I’m looking for, is the numbers, the answers, the confidence, and we’re looking forward to the results. So thank you.

Thank you, looking to committee or visiting Councillors for any other questions or comments to our guest delegation this afternoon. Seeing none, I will need a mover and a seconder to accept the recommendation of funding that’s contained within the committee report and having received our delegation. Moved by Councillor Pribble, seconded by Councillor Ramen, calling the question. Sorry, Councillor Lewis.

Sorry, Chair, I thought we were only doing questions while the guest was available before we did questions and comments on the motion on the floor. Sorry, we’re just stopping the vote then. Sorry, yes, so we’re done with our guest. Okay, so thank you to our guests.

Obviously you can stay, just we’re not gonna make you get up and down anymore. So we’ll start with questions on the report itself. Councillor Lewis. Thank you, Madam Chair.

And not so much a question, more a comment. I actually had the opportunity to get some background information on Palette back in December and some follow-up information in January. There had been some outreach because of my role on the London Middlesex Community Housing Board. And I wanna say to Chuck and the folks at the Unity Project, I think this is a really good proposal you’re bringing forward.

I think that this model, and I have raised this in the past term of council as well. I like the model that’s moving us away from dormitory-style shelter beds and into private spaces where people can keep their things, feel safe, secure on their own. There’s been various iterations of this suggestion. The Kwanzaa Hutts, all these different names for them.

But what I’m seeing here today is, I think probably the best example I’ve seen of this kind of product on the market. I think it’s cost-effective from that perspective. And I have lots of faith in the Unity Project’s history as an operator to know that this will be, I’m confident in the success. So kudos to the Unity Project staff for bringing this forward.

I think this is an idea that I hope other agencies and providers in the community will see as a good model to emulate the future. Thank you. And there are further questions or comments on the staff report before we vote. Call on the question.

Sir Stevenson. Thank you, I vote yes. Closing the vote, the motion carries, six to zero. Thank you.

And thank you to our delegation once again for joining us today. Anything at committee that’s voted on today will not be in effect until it passes at council. I believe it’s April 4th. So thank you for making yourself available and for all the work that you do in our community.

To Councillor Stevenson, I had to get completely out of eScribe and log back in to fight with it. I had to do it twice, but then it did work. So looking to item 2.6, which was the other item out of our consent agenda that we pulled, being the infrastructure update for the Thames pool, there is a delegation request. Staff is also prepared with an overview of this report, having got some questions in advance of this committee to bring some answers for the whole committee to be updated on the same page before we start from there.

So I’m gonna start with Ms. Smith, if you want to give your overview. Wait, we need to vote on the motion of staff bringing us the report first and then, sorry, just one second. Okay, apparently we get to pick if we want staff to speak as a delegation request.

So looking for a mover and a seconder to allow staff to get the report. Councillor Stevenson, second, moves. Okay, apologies. Apparently the Cheryl Smith asking for delegation, we have two Cheryl’s today.

So we don’t need a delegation for staff, which was my confusing point. So we’re gonna take Cheryl Smith of staff first as a delegation to tell us how we got here, which we don’t need to vote on. And then we’ll do a vote on, I don’t wanna say Cheryl Smith number two, but Cheryl Smith up top, who’s also with us today to hear them. So we’ll proceed with staff first, and then we’ll do our, and welcome to all the Cheryl’s today in general.

And with us a purpose and earned the gallery, I’m not sure how many there are, but there’s at least two. So, staff, Miss Smith, please proceed with your overview of how we got here. Thank you, enter you chair. This was a difficult report for civic administration to write and bring to council and to the public.

It is a hard decision. City staff build recreation infrastructure for people young and old to enjoy, gain experiences and improve lives. Thames Pool has been in London community for generations. Many Londoners in the immediate neighborhood and across London have memories and a deep connection to this pool.

The pool was originally built in 1927. It was rebuilt again in 1959, and it was rebuilt again in 1975. When a new pool was built inside the old pool and a heater was added. There was extensive renovations and repairs done in the 1980s and the 1990s.

In 2010, the pool was completely rebuilt again due to the integrity of the pool at a cost of approximately $4 million. An excerpt from a staff report dated May 2007 stated quotes. In recent years, there’s been significant decline in the structural integrity of the pool bottoms and walls, which now require replacing. Annually, we continue to conduct repairs and preventative maintenance on the pool.

In spring 2022, as part of our opening process, city staff filled Thames Pool. It takes approximately 600,000 gallons of water. I received a call the next morning and was told that Thames Pool was empty. The water had literally drained almost out of the entire pool.

At that time, civic administration did not know the reason, but we did know that this was a severe infrastructure failure. Pool experts, including aquatic designers, building science and geotechnical engineers, were called to come to London and analyze what happened. Based on the history of the repairs and the investigation by these experts, Thames Pool has experienced significant and repeated infrastructure damage due to its location on the floodplain. The most probable cause of the infrastructure damage is hydrostatic uplift pressure or frost penetration below the pool floor, impacted by the frequency and duration of severe weather events.

This caused the following major failures of Thames Pool, a differential movement in the pool floor, failures in the piping systems, and a loss of base support of the pool. Significant weather events impacting the groundwater level and overland flooding from the Thames River are continuing threats for future damage. In the attached report, civic administration outlined five options, ranging from minimum repairs to decommissioning the pool. These are high-level proposals intended to help determine the preferred course of action for Thames Pool.

Each option increases the complexity of the project and the costs associated with it. Additional measures support mitigation and prevention efforts. However, the risk from groundwater and flooding remains at the Thames Pool site. The primary objectives of options one, minimum repairs, two, extensive repairs, and option three, rehabilitation, is to monitor and attempt to manage the groundwater to address the underlying cause of the concerns.

However, these are not permanent solutions to minimize or manage the risk from the groundwater at this site. Flooding continues to, will continue to remain a continued risk. Option four is to rebuild at the current site. This does not eliminate the risk from groundwater and flooding.

However, a new design specific to site conditions could mitigate the risks. It is important to note that a new design will not be an exact replacement of what is currently there. Option five is to decommission Thames Outdoor Pool. This is the only option that fully supports civic administration principles and fully addresses the continued risk of failure and potential ongoing repair costs due to the site conditions.

Depending on the decision made by council, civic administration will bring forward a follow-up report including costing and next steps regarding community engagement. City staff will immediately begin working on a comprehensive communication plan to inform user groups and the public that Thames Pool will not be open this summer. We will build on the strategies we used in 2022 to support the neighborhood to access alternate opportunities. Thank you for allowing me this time and my colleagues and I are here to answer your questions.

Thank you. I will turn to committee at this time to see if you’d like to grant delegation request to Cheryl from the public up top. We would like councilor ramen seconded by councilor Stevenson calling the question. Opposing the vote, the motion carries six to zero.

Thank you, to IT, we’re gonna have a speaker at the microphone up in the gallery. Welcome Ms. Smith, you have up to five minutes to say what you’d like to say to committee today. Please proceed when you’re ready.

Thank you, sorry, I’m not the tallest person so I’m gonna stand here. We can hear you perfectly. Okay, perfect. So thank you all for having me here tonight and I am the second Cheryl Smith and very proud to be the second Cheryl Smith.

I am a very, very proud resident of Old South. I wanna thank you again for valuing my voice as somebody that was born and raised in London. I would like to share my memories, perspective, concerns and ideas regarding the status of Thames Park swimming pool. I am in my forties and I share this because I think it’s important to point out that the history of this pool, at this community pool, I learned to swim, I learned how to be safe around water, I learned how to dive and most importantly, the best way to get into a cold pool.

Just jumping straight into the deep end. I went to elementary school and high school in Old South and have very fond memories of meeting friends at the pool on hot summer days and playing for hours and I mean hours. It served as a place for teenagers to waste summer days away in a safe and supervised environment. This park and pool has served London residents for decades.

I am now a proud single mother and hear me loud and clear when I say that Thames Pool is our home away from home for July and August. I moved back into Old South after university with my family for three reasons. The schools, the community and the amenities, one of which is Thames Park and the pool. Since my daughter was 10 months old, we have been going to Thames Pool almost every day for the month of July and August.

I register my daughter in swimming lessons that start in May and we end the season with swimming lessons in August. We buy season pass that allow us to come and swim and play and build a strong family connection for days after days after days. Summer camps as a single parent are not always in my budget and therefore having affordable, affordable summer activities is essential to our mental health and wellbeing. We have come to know the lifeguards and staff over the years.

We have fond memories of Josh and Ben and Julia and Caitlin and many, many more of the staff. You see, the staff at the pool are not just staff. There are community helpers, our teachers and our friends. For those that don’t know, Thames Pool is the only outdoor swimming pool that has 50 meter lanes.

Not only has this allowed for summer swim meets that bring revenue to the pool and the city, but it has also supported many swimming athletes from London, Maggie McNeil, a gold medal Olympian, Adam Purdy, a gold medal peri Olympian, sorry, a peri Olympian, both of whom swim in meets at Thames Pool. What a great thing for the city of London. On our many days at the pool, we would share that big pool with summer campers, camps that are provided through the city of London. Groups upon groups of kids and counselors would pile in and it would be reprieve from the sticky heat for the kids.

With the size of the pool, it never felt overcrowded and we always had room to splash and play. Over the summer, we have had many, many play dates at Thames Park Pool. We are fortunate enough, we, my family, are fortunate enough to be able to walk, ride our park, ride our bikes or drive. My parents are lane swimmers and visit the pool every morning from Monday to Friday when the pool is open.

Please, please, please, don’t take this away from my family. My daughter’s friend has cerebral palsy. Thames Pool is accessible with a ramp that allows her friend to access the pool avoiding stairs. It also has a large shallow end that allows our friend to have lots of room to play.

The pool is also heated, which helps prevent this child from having muscle spasms while playing and swimming. This pool is also located beside the best accessible playground in the pool, or sorry, in the city. What a treat it must be for a child to be able to go and swim and play at the exact same location. To summarize, this pool is affordable.

It is accessible for all. It is well used by many different swimmers in the city of London. It is local and it is easy to get to from across the city. What happened is my question to you all.

As a Londoner, help me understand how we got to the point that potentially closing this pool is on the table. Why does it feel like this is all happening so quickly? Do the residents of London have a chance to give input or share ideas? Who dropped the ball is my question?

Where were the mistakes made? And how are we, as a collective, going to fix it? Why can’t we fix the pool so that it can be used this summer? 20 seconds.

  • Give families and community members something for this summer. Let our have our swimming lessons and our summer days with friends and family. Please, please, can we slow down? Can we look at the comprehensive report and make an educational decision for the long-term plan?

I thank you again for letting me speak and I’m available for any questions. Thank you for that. I’ll allow you to, London Free Press is to your left. CTV News is down here on the floor with you, up with us in case they approach you later, you know who these gentlemen are.

As there’s no report connected with you, we normally don’t take questions that probably gets you off the hook for that. You’re welcome to stay, but thank you. Wonderful job in staying right on the five minutes. Two other visitors in the gallery, you’re allowed to eat and drink snacks that you might have brought with you.

I do apologize for the benches, not always being the most comfortable. And we do just ask that there’s no applauding or booing, just to make sure it’s a safe place for everyone to say what needs to be said without any fear. So thank you for that and for joining us this evening. We will do take a dinner break eventually if we’re still here.

Had a wonderful thought and it’s quickly escaped me. So at this point we go to, usually I go to committee for questions and comments to get us started. I will note that right before committee communication was sent through the city clerk, Mr. Schulte’s, sent by the word counselor being Councillor Frank.

With her thoughts, realizing she’s not on this committee, so she doesn’t get a vote and cannot move or second anything. Normally I would go to committee first. I’m not sure if you’re interested in hearing from the word Councillor first because she’s been doing some engagement and replying to a lot of the emails that we’ve been getting from the community. Would that be up to the, okay.

So yes, we’re good. Any objections to Councillor Frank speaking? Councillor Frank, congratulations, welcome to committee. And would you like to start us off with your views as a word counselor and recognizing we’re at committee, not council.

So normally at council we didn’t only speak once, but we’re at committee so we can go around for rounds of conversations, just a reminder for that. So welcome and please proceed. Thank you and thank you for having me at your committee. This is the first time I’ve joined CAPS and I heard it’s a great committee.

So I already saw snacks. But thank you for having me and letting me speak first. I was really excited to be able to attend and share the ample communication that I’ve been receiving from residents, which I know lots of Councillors and the mayor has been receiving as well. I did want to start off my remarks with kind of a bit of a summary of that communication ‘cause I have extensively been receiving that.

And then also I have a bit of a pathway forward. I hope if folks will be interested in that. To start, I do want to say this is definitely the best location for the pool. At the same time it is also the worst location for the pool as you’ll find out from the comments I’ve been receiving.

I don’t think though that we can be making any kind of decision until we do have more information and proper community engagement process. So I am hoping that maybe folks will be interested in the meantime getting the pool fixed for next summer, understanding that this summer it is not feasible. And in the meantime undertaking throughout community engagement and planning. Over the last week I’ve been hearing from residents who have had grandparents swim at this location, people who are pregnant and planning to have their kids swim here, people with kids in daycare and camps who use this all summer to cool off, people who’ve learned how to swim here, people who’ve been lifeguards here, families come for entire days and bring picnics, Olympians have trained here, we’ve kind of heard it all.

Knowing it is very well used, it is very well loved, it is very conveniently located for many. Of course except for the floodplain issue. I have had hundreds of emails, tons of calls, tons of messages on social media and on social media posts and I’m hoping that continues as this goes on. I’ve been hearing a variety of solutions and hopes from residents ranging from keep the pool open under any circumstance too.

I don’t want to spend any more money on this pool and I know that council members have probably heard the same. And that makes this decision even more complex because there is no single unified response that we’re hearing and I think that we recognize it is an incredibly difficult decision. So a couple other things I’d like to folks to consider, it is a citywide issue. So we know that 25,000 people use this pool every year which is about 30% of all pool visits.

It provides a service to thousands of lenders across the city, it’s not just downtown and Old South that use it. It’s an economic issue so we do generate revenue through user fees, it’s used for regional meets that brings in people from outside of the city. So I’m sure there is an economic and tourism value to the pool. It’s a downtown and core services issue.

So if we take away this pool without offering one similarly nearby, people in the core area are gonna be underserved and currently we’re trying to get people to move into denser neighborhoods and we wanna promote infill and if we do that, we have to be providing recreational opportunities. It’s an issue about climate change. So climate change is one of the reasons why we’re having this issue but of course, if we do not have similar recreational opportunities in this area, people will be driving likely just based on how we know people get around our city and that will increase our emissions. We’re trying to get people to reduce their driving, taking away things they can walk to, of course does not help that as well as an equity issue.

So many people who cannot afford air conditioning use this as a spot to cool down in the summer and we will be experiencing more heat waves. Public pools offer these universal recreational opportunities. So if we wanna be welcoming an inclusive city, having those opportunities for people is incredibly important. And I think it’s also an issue but what we prioritize spending on in this city.

So we spend 31 million annually in road repairs, a new kilometer of road costs between four to six million and one kilometer repair costs between 650,000 to one million. We know that the roads are made of asphalt and that does not stand up to our winter climates and yet we continue to build roads and repair them knowing that it has a cost. So those are all the things I’ve heard so far on the negative side for keeping or for closing it. And that said, I did hear some communication from folks saying they don’t wanna keep repaying for the repairs and they wanna enjoy a pool that’s open every summer, not one that every other summer might be closed down.

So folks do understand there are issues with the location. That all said, it’s not an easy issue. But like I said at the beginning, I don’t think we have enough information to make a permanent decision on this location. And I do think it’s unfair to the community to take away this treasured community spot without a clear path forward.

So as the chair mentioned, I did circulate a draft motion with some information about how we can advance in a way that kind of balances a variety of these perspectives and needs. And I do believe I have a mover and seconder to get on the floor for people to debate. So thank you for having me here today. Thank you for those overview comments as the word counselor engaging so much with those phone calls.

I know when I know you’re on it. So when I’m copied on it, I’m like counselor Frank’s been copied too. She can be the first to reply as she’s the word counselor. Just quickly for clarification as it came up in counselor Frank’s comments and from Ms.

Smith upstairs, I’m gonna go to the Ms. Smith downstairs. And just for clarity as the residents have been asking and they’ve reviewed the op of their options. Just to clarify, there is no possible way that the inspection can be done.

A tender can go out and repairs can be made to salvage any of the 2023 swim season that we’re definitely looking at 2024. Just for clarification. Through the chair and I could turn it over to Ms. Stewart and facilities, but that is correct.

For 2023, we’d have to go out to tender. If you look at option one, it’s at least six months, I believe option two is looking around eight months because it’s an outdoor pool. We have a very, very small window to do repairs. So even if we went out to tender, if council directs us to later this year, the work would take throughout the spring and summer of next year to be completed depending on the option you choose.

And again, we would wanna go back out to the consultant and get an updated conditional report on the pool this year. Thank you for that, just for clarity. So we’re on the same page, having heard from residents. Councilor ramen, I’ll start my speaker’s list.

Thank you, I’m just in follow up to Ms. Smith’s comments. So if we were looking at a repair, you’re saying that the repair would happen in 2024 and the pool couldn’t be reopened till 2025. Perhaps Ms.

Smith or the aquatic team all knowing. Sorry, thank you through the chair. I’ll turn it over to Ms. Stewart.

She’s the director of fleet and facilities. Welcome. Thank you through the chair. Depending on the extent of the repairs that are required and whether related kind of seasons, repairs could start in the early fall and finish in the spring for a 2024 opening, but that would be if it’s a fairly simple kind of fix.

Councilor follow up, thank you and through you chair. And you wouldn’t know that until the further investigation is done, or are we confident right now that option one or two could be done meeting that timeline for 2024? For reply please. Through the chair.

So yes, the further investigation is required. The other issue that factors into it is the availability of contractors who specialize in this work because they have a very limited season to work in the very often booked kind of for the current season, it wouldn’t be available. So that would be another issue. Councilor.

Okay, I’d councilor for our next. And thank you and through the chair. Just wanted to first thank staff for basically bringing this forward with a pretty good report. And I’m hoping that we do see something in the future and for the delegates or the delegate that spoke Cheryl Smith number two.

And for councilor Frank’s comments, it’s very appreciated as well. I just wanted to point out about like these repairs that we’re talking about now, the minimal repairs, even though we don’t know if it will be done by 2024, but there’s a good likelihood it seems that it would be, I just wanted to throw it there. It doesn’t seem like that would be a permanent repair. And just like what we saw in 2010 with the major construction, we did have a flood during the time right in the middle of that construction, which did cost the city extra money.

So these are concerns that I just wanted to point out on that front too. So it’s not necessarily saying that the pool is not gonna be, like we’re not gonna have this community stable. It does seem to look just to be prudent and fiscally responsible, you know, with our city hats on to maybe look for other options for where the pool might be, other locations. So that is a concern that I am having.

So just to know, I would hate to do significant repairs on the pool and have another flooding event during the construction time as well. Like that would be something that is definitely a huge risk that we have to consider. So I just wanted to point that part out at this point. And like Councillor Frank said, there is a motion, but I guess we’ll just wait until we kind of bring it up.

But it does speak to a lot of this. And it does also speak to community involvement and the engagement just so we can have all stakeholders to be able to put their word in. And so we know what everybody is looking for. So that’s kind of how I’ll leave it right there.

As Councillor Frank cannot move a motion, and I’m not sure who are moving in second order or if a motion be made at any point, Councillor Ferra. I was gonna move the motion and I do have a seconder. I can, we can put that on right now for Council to look at. I just wanted to, if you want to put that on the floor right now just to help with debate, we can do that.

So are you moving the Councilor’s motion that was pre-circulated? Yes, I’ll move that motion. And just looking to the clerk to make sure that you have that wording and we’re good. And perfect, it’s already up.

So anyone in the gallery, this is it. And for the media, that’s it. I was looking to see who would second that. Perfect, so Councillor Pribble seconds.

And as always, we can make amendments and still fully discuss this. So it doesn’t stop conversation, it just helps focus us a little bit of where we’re going. Councillor Ferra, follow up. Well, I’d like to speak, maybe speak to the motion or Councillor Frank can speak to it or Councillor Pribble.

But I think one of us may be speaking to the reasoning of what we have up there might be appreciated to everyone in the gallery. Okay, so why don’t you finish that? ‘Cause I do have a speaker’s list and then we’ll keep going. So Councillor Ferra, recognizing committee first.

So Councillor Ferra. Okay, and thank you and through the chair. So basically, if you look at this motion, you can see that we are looking to reopen the Thames pool as it sits right now, but with minimal repairs, just because we are trying to mitigate that risk. If you do look at the timeframe, it is for 2024 because as staff has noted, there’s no way to have the pool be repaired for this summer just because of with tender going on, having to find someone to do it and then actually doing the work.

We are looking to conduct some type of community engagement, probably on get involved London, with options that we have specifically put out there regarding like splash pad versus pool, indoor versus outdoor length, and just the size and type of the pool. And we’re also looking, if you also see below that on number three, we’re looking for staff to give us some type of comprehensive report to just look at the costs and everything’s associated with developing a new pool to for a more permanent solution. And then we are looking for a public participation, just so we can actually have the community get engaged because we are hearing a lot from a lot of the emails that were coming in and a lot of community members saying that they haven’t really had, they don’t feel like they’ve had enough say into the status and the future outlook of the pool. So we’re trying to really get the community involved.

So you can really kind of show your voice. And that’s really what this motion is looking at if you were to look at it in that order. So that’s, we thought it was very reasonable. And we’re just trying to make something that actually works.

So that’s pretty much the motion on the floor. Thank you. Thank you. I’ll go to a staff briefly.

I believe you would saw the draft beforehand looking to make sure that the timelines could still likely be bent, recognizing there’s always potentially third party expertise that may or not be available on our timelines, just for brief comment. And then as we go, if we change the wording, I’ll check with staff too again, just to make sure that we could actually deliver what we’re telling the public we’re trying to do. So Ms. Smith.

Thank you and through the chair to rewrite a report by the end of June, 2023. Yes, we’re happy to do that and bring it back to committee. At that time though, we would have a more solid estimate of the timing on the repair and would be able to give you that timing whether it’s option one or two. So I understand the want for the summer of 2024, but I can’t guarantee that until we talk to consultants, see what’s available and again, as I said, when you look at a minimum of six to eight months, can’t work in the winter season, I think 2024 personally is challenging.

And respect to number three, coming back with a comprehensive staff report in 2024, we can work to that timeline noting that we would want to bring back our reports, including the costing and options to both the PPM, but then it would have to be integrated as part of the 2024 annual budget update. So I could work with Ms. Barbarn, and we could bring that timeline for that again in the June, 2023 report to confirm the timeline of engagement and bringing forward a report and a PPM. As budget chair, I look forward to that.

Thank you very much. So Councilor Ferriero, you’re satisfied with what you heard that staff will do their best to in all of committee to go by the timelines and then update us after that first report comes back. Okay, continuing with my speakers list, looking to committee to see if anyone else would like to chime in. If not, I will go to Councilor Lewis.

Okay, Councilor Lewis. Thank you, Madam Chair. So I want to preface my comments and start by saying this to the members of the public. And there have been some very thoughtful, respectful emails.

There have been some that have been less so. And if anyone thinks for a minute that our staff rolled out of bed thinking, it’d be really fun to bring forward a report to decommission the pool today. You’re absolutely wrong. These folks work very hard day in and day out all year round.

And I’ve had the privilege now of working alongside them for four and a half years. And I see how much they care about the recreation facilities that so many of us enjoy all across the city. This was not an easy decision for them to bring forward a recommendation for at all. They would have been thrilled to be able to share with the community that the pool was going to reopen this summer or next summer.

But that’s not the reality. And when we look at the future of this pool, we have to do so from an engineering and a practical perspective. We all have strong, emotional ties to things from our past and things that we’d like to enjoy in the future. I grew up swimming in a outdoor pool back in my hometown.

I also swam in the local river. Probably not a thing I’d recommend anybody do today in that river, but something that I did as a kid. And I look back on those memories with some fondness, but the time for that has passed. And to me, the information we have in the report here is very strongly suggesting that the time for Thames Pool at this location is passed as well.

But through you, Madam Chair, I want to ask a few questions of our staff based on some things that are in the report, because I think it’s important to draw a little bit more information out here. First, when we talk about the potential to rebuild a pool in Thames Park that can withstand extreme weather conditions, we heard already that it would not be an exact replica of the pool that’s there now. I’m wondering if staff could comment on building a pool that could withstand those weather conditions, withstand the shifting of the ground, the voids, and the hydrostatic pressure that were referenced in the report. Would it be safe to say that a pool that could withstand those kind of conditions is not going to be another 50-meter long lap pool in order for the engineering to be strong enough to withstand those conditions?

Thank you to staff. Through the chair, I think it’s fair to say that withstand may be the wrong verb to use, given the conditions that we know that exist on that site. We can design and build an aquatic amenity that’s better suited to that environment, but the risk of that location, as we’ve seen through the history of the repairs and incidents that we’ve seen, would make it nearly impossible to say that it could be built to withstand the conditions that do exist there. Deputy Mayor Lewis.

Thank you for that. So also through you to our staff, and this is very specific to a couple of the details that are in the motion, and I will share from the start, and I’ve shared this with Councillor Frank already as well. Well, I would be comfortable moving ahead with option five so that we can start the process of identifying a new location, start working towards that. I recognize that it’s a long process, and I recognize the desire for some runway for the community, and that a short-term repair to provide some opportunity for the amenity to be used a little bit longer while we look at the long-term future.

I understand the desire for that, and I can support a short-term investment to keep the pool functional for a little bit longer while we look at those alternatives. But I’m mindful of the fact that our parks and recreation master plan does not envision future outdoor pool amenities. So through you to our staff, I’m wondering if we could just get a brief summary of why the parks and recreation master plan has moved away from outdoor swimming facilities. I understand there’s things like unauthorized access.

Might have been guilty myself as a teenager perhaps from jumping offense once or twice. Sorry, he has no recollection of that occurrence. No, he’s not publicly amending to anything. And Mr.

McGonigal was not running the department at that time. He probably was jumping the fence in another pool, but we’ve had unauthorized access issues, obviously the shortened season. But to do extreme weather events, obviously we don’t operate outdoor pools during thunderstorms and things of that nature. So with more extreme weather events anticipated, do we see that as another reason that we’re moving away from that?

To staff, thank you, and through the chair, I’ll turn it over to Mr. McGonigal to answer the question. Thank you, and through the chair, the Parks and Recreation Master Plan was approved by council in 2019. And the deputy mayor is correct in that plan.

It does not recommend that the city of London build any more outdoor pools. And that is listed for a variety of reasons. The short season, as the deputy mayor indicated, as an example, last year we had 23 days of rain throughout that eight to 10 week period that impacts some of the services we provide, high operating costs for a short season. And so those are really the main drivers.

I think the other thing that is important and noted in the master plan is that we have capacity in our existing system. And that is also a driver. And I think as I stated publicly last week, the master plan does not tell us to take any away. And so I recognize this is a difficult conversation in topic, but that recommendation is explicit in the master plan that was approved by council.

And that master plan is based off of a really heavy public consultation process. So thank you for the opportunity. Councilor, I do have other speakers on the list, so I’ll just— - Yeah, I’m about ready to wrap up, Madam Chair. So I just wanna go back to a couple of things for rising out of the responses from staff in regard to the motion that the councilors have put on the floor.

I would really encourage the removal of indoor versus outdoor and just focus on seeking a new location for a new pool rather than an indoor or outdoor. I would really encourage the engagement process to include soliciting feedback on a new pool versus indoor versus outdoor pool. I think that we’re setting the table with some false expectations. If we’re engaging people on an indoor/outdoor discussion, when really that’s not something that’s consistent with the future of our Parks and Recreation Master Plan.

I think we’ve also heard from staff the high operating costs and the other considerations that come into the disadvantages of an outdoor pool. I recognize that there’s an ambiance in an atmosphere to them, but with a brand new indoor pool in my ward, I know how valuable it is to have a facility that can be used 12 months of the year. And while the community may feel attachment to an outdoor pool at the moment, I think an indoor pool in the future, they would get just as much love and establish a new history at. So I would encourage the councilors to consider modifying the language of the motion to take away the language that pits outdoor versus indoor and just focus on the future for a new pool facility.

And I am just going to wrap up by saying that again, I think the community conversation is important and I applaud the councilors for starting that already. I think one of the nice things about a new facility at some point is we can have the conversation about what other amenities should be around it. Do we need community meeting spaces? Do we want to have a space where families can rent a room to host a birthday party or a grad celebration or something like that?

So I think that a new facility opens up some new opportunities that the community conversation can help steer us towards as well. But I would just really encourage that we not focus in on indoor versus outdoor, but rather what a new aquatics facility might look like for the community and look forward to hearing the rest of the comments and thoughts that folks have around this. But I think the information in the report speaks for itself. 1959, 1975, again in the ’80s, again in the ’90s, this pool is in the wrong location.

It’s going to continue to need extensive infrastructure renewal on a pretty regular basis if we just leave it there as his. So to me, that is not a road to go down. I would rather invest in something that the community can enjoy 12 months of the year for the next 50 years rather than the next five before we have to close it again for more repairs. Thank you, so Councillor Frank, if you want to take a moment to discuss Deputy Mayor Lewis’s feedback, you certainly don’t have to take it.

In regards to 2.8, removing indoor versus outdoor and three that would pertain to B for new location for indoor or outdoor pool. We have had community feedback before to council, the last term that was don’t do public engagement, tell them with a broad question, when there’s actually no way to give me what you’ve asked me if I wanted in hearing from a staff that the 2019 Parks and Rec Master Plan is recommending no outdoor pools, just to take that consideration that we might be, you don’t want to say teasing, but offering residents something that is going to go against what we’re trying to offer. So I’ll let you think on that. I will also note, as was mentioned in item one, that we’re not committing to reopening the pool with six pension fairs for operation time for summer 2024.

Staff will bring back a report, identifying those costs of what it would take to open, and then we have a choice to see if we want to invest that much money and how long it’s going to get us to, and where we’re at with other options. So it’ll just lay out a plan for us if we choose to move forward with actual costs associated with those decision-making points. The next speaker on my list is Mayor Morgan. Please proceed.

Thank you. I’ll provide some comments, and I think colleagues have provided some excellent commentary so far. I want to echo what the deputy mayor said about our staff, that this is obviously not an easy decision for them. They’ve laid out a number of options, and they’re trying to put the best possible information and a range of possibilities in front of us, and obviously a very challenging situation, ‘cause from what I know about our staff, they’re like all of us.

We see tremendous value in the recreational and neighborhood assets that the city provides. Yes, we provide roads and safe water and many things, but the enjoyable stuff, the stuff that people really have their quality of life enhanced by our parks and recreational services, outdoor community pools, indoor community pools, and things that are very tough to make these decisions on. So I want to echo that I do believe our staff are doing their best to provide some options to us under a very challenging situation, and I’ll say one of the first things I did when I learned about the situation is I called Councillor Frank, and I said congratulations on being one of the first to have a no-win situation. And then I quickly realized I was in that too, because now that I’m mayor, I run citywide, and the residents of the area are my constituents too.

And like Councillor Frank, I have received many, many emails from residents who are sharing their stories about the pool. I remember my kids have swam there too multiple times. I think one of them did swimming lessons there at some point. We kind of went around and explored all the different pools across the city during our time with our kids.

So I think we all have very positive memories of our community assets, and that’s exactly what they’re there for. That’s what they’re there to create, which makes this really difficult situation and truly a no-win, because when you look at the parameters of the situation before us, we can make significant investments in this asset with no guarantees that we won’t be in the same situation. And so on a long-term time horizon, we have to think about mistakes that may have been made even decades and decades ago about the location of our recreational assets. And we have to think about how we rectify those under a timeline that is reasonable for the community that enjoys those.

And I think what the Councillors have carved out here is giving a little bit of runway for the community who truly values this asset. Well, at the same time focusing on the long-term challenges in the time horizon that we have to think about, which is providing a long-term sustainable community asset for the next 100 years. That can withstand significant challenges or significant cost incursions due to damage and vulnerability. So I like the motion that has been carved out.

I think obviously there’s lots of opportunity for us to provide some feedback and tweak it, but at the base level, I appreciate what is trying to be done. I also appreciate that this gives the community some time to have a little bit more information and more details about it. Well, one of the things I’ve noticed in the correspondence is there’s a lot of people with a lot of ideas. Many of those ideas are simply just not functional because the public obviously doesn’t have complete information about the situation.

I see suggestions to say build a new pool on the parking lot on the north side of the Thames. Well, for anybody who’s been around for a while, that is old PUC lands, Public Utility Commission lands, that are significantly contaminated, capped and from a public report in 2018, the cost estimates of cleaning up the PUC lands are over $60 million. So not a viable spot to be building a community asset. So those sorts of things are great ideas that come forward, but focusing the discussion around what the viable options are, which is what our staff can provide, where the risks are to those options, where we may proceed with being prepared to open in 2024 or 2025 or whatever the year is, and that winter could do significant damage to the asset again, and we may never open.

So there are significant risks, but I do believe in community consultation and having that dialogue about our recreational assets with Londoners. So I’ll support the motion when the vote comes up. I’ll look for other tweaks that colleagues are going to be willing to make, and I’ll look forward to what will be a very challenging conversation over the next little while with the support of the ward counselors and the community to talk about the type of assets that the community needs in this area, the continuing or the replacement of pool and aquatic assets in that area, and as a growing city, and we all know that we’ve committed to tens of thousands of new people coming here over the next decade, the evolution of our recreational assets that we need to absolutely invest in over that timeframe to ensure that we’re not just growing as a city, but we’re growing and maintaining the quality of life that residents enjoy, and investment in our recreational services over the next couple of decades through the Parks and Rec Master Plan and enhancements and modifications that we can make to it as a growing city are also really important discussions, not just for the community impacted by this pool, but for all residents across the city of London. So again, I’ll summarize by saying, I’ll support the motion.

I appreciate the counselor’s desire to find a path forward. I appreciate that they’d like to get more information from staff about what exactly it would look like, and that’s really what number one is saying. We’re not absolutely 100% sure going to repair this pool, but given the condition report was from the fall, we haven’t seen how it survived the winter, an updated condition report, understanding what repairs could be made, getting some experts in there to see what could be warrantied or not warrantied, and what level of risk we would take with a repair, I think is a responsible next step for us to consider, and with the community, we can make a decision on how to proceed, and the chair is very good at giving the wrap-up signal, so I’ll end my comments there. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, right on your five minute point, let’s try not to interrupt, and I do chair, I do time everyone, no one’s exempt from their timing. Councillor Frank is next on my list. Thank you, yes, I just wanted the opportunity to perhaps share my thoughts about why I’d be keen to hear from residents of the indoor versus outdoor. From staff, I have heard that if we were to rebuild at that site, there is potential, it might cost a lot of money, but I don’t know how much, I don’t know any of the engineering information, and I don’t know if it would likely be smaller, but I guess the point is I don’t know, and that is the information I’d like to get from staff, is if we were to keep it at that location, could we have a smaller outdoor pool at that location that wouldn’t have the same impacts that a big location has?

So that is the information that I’m hoping to understand to get, which is why I didn’t want to take away the indoor/outdoor option when we’re chatting with residents, because I want to understand that information, and that is the only reason I was trying to keep, I’m kind of, the door is open, I guess, when we’re doing consultation with the community, is I want to have their input, and then an understanding from staff, which is why part A of three does still include that request from staff to understand that information. Thank you, looking to further speakers, Councilor Rong? Thank you, and through you. First, I want to say thank you to the public that has reached out on this issue, and with your concerns and your memories, I totally hear you, and I feel that you shared some significant concerns, and I know, like many of you, I’m listening, and thank you to Councillor Frank for her words at the beginning as well.

I think that helped to set the tone and for the motion that’s been provided here as well. It’s very helpful to have this in front of us as we’re thinking through this. The one question I had actually was with respect to the consultation piece and the community engagement. With the timing of the community engagement, I’m just pondering my own head, if community engagement would be, of course, always welcome and continued, but if we seek more public engagement after more options are presented to us on what can be done, I feel like when we go out to the public and say things like indoor or outdoor, when we’re talking about things like location, new facilities, again, I think having all the information provided first would be helpful in the consultation process, because I wouldn’t want people to set expectations in their minds that the consultation, everything can be done based on what they’ve thought of and what they’ve provided, but yet a staff comes back and there’s a lot of more constraints within the next report.

So I’m trying to wrap my head around what and when consultation should happen. And again, not that we’re not willing to hear right now and going forward from everyone, but I just wanna make sure that the timing of the consultation provides the opportunity for the community to imagine what is possible and to really think through all of those possibilities and not limited by design and scope and location and things like that. So I don’t know if staff have any thoughts on through the chair, if there are any thoughts on the timing around consultation and if the consultation could be seen as potentially too early for some of the unknowns that we still have to work out. Thank you.

Thank you to staff then. So part one is saying end of June, so that would be the end of Q2 2023 for this report to come back from CAHPS, looking then as per Councilor Raman’s comments if conducted through a community engagement process starting in Q3 with coming back to us in Q4, if that would still align with timelines, recognizing we could have more concise and actual answers for the community while getting their engagement to make sure it’s the most meaningful impact. Through the chair, I guess I’d wanna go back and think about that because part of the community engagement also for us is to look at our plans as our parking master plan. See what that says also to we typically engage other municipalities, which we’ve started to do, what other municipalities are doing.

You’re right, we’d want to understand exactly what a rebuild in this site could it be done? Would it be done? Is it work that be warranteed and guaranteed? So there is quite a bit of background work to be done.

And depending on what we go out and engage because then the second part is we would engage again after we prepared a report. So we wanna listen to the community, look at what the experts say, look at what other municipalities are doing, or other people building out their pools, why or why not? And then we would bring that information back to council with some options for a public participation meeting. So a question, or I guess a comment, then hearing from staff, if point number two is almost redundant ‘cause once we get the report back, when it comes back in the staff consultations and then we’ll have a full report to go back to the community with including costs, timelines, and locations with a side note of what other municipalities are doing and references to our park and rec master plan.

Is that, okay, I’m having a nod from councilor Ramen. So to staff, is that more in alignment with how we would normally do things in a proper, meaningful engagement with residents, recognizing they can write at any time to council or frank and council. And these reports will come public as they come to committee as well for public feedback. Ms.

Livingston. I’m wanting to be helpful. So I was just asking the question on how late can a decision be made in order to try and achieve something for the summer of 2024. And that may impact on the timing of the community engagement and when reports come forward.

And my understanding is a decision would need to be made by the end of the summer. So that to councilor Ramen’s question about when should engagement and what all information does council need to make their decision. If one and two are required to make that decision, then I think we’d need to line it up to be able to get in the window of having a hope for 2024. And to the members of the public who might be watching our new Ms.

Livingston is our helpful city manager. Just we know how she fits in. Councilor Frank. Thank you.

And I’m hoping to maybe provide a little bit of clarity and maybe a bit of background. So I did hear while I was receiving the emails and phone calls and social media messages that the community does feel a little bit blindsided understanding that this is like again, coming to committee and then going to council. So I think the efforts of number two are to provide an opportunity and a venue for people to continue sharing their thoughts. That is perhaps not only my email inbox and that will be perhaps cataloged and provided in a report format to the rest of council.

I am number two, the community engagement regarding the item number two is more about the long-term strategy. So that’s what I don’t think that’s being conveyed perhaps based on this discussion. I think option one, about getting that report about trying to get the pool open for next year, that’s kind of an isolation. That’s like an ideal version.

Let’s move forward on that and try to get the pool open for next year and what we need to do about that. Option two is more what is the long-term. So, and I was trying to also bookend so having some engagement at the beginning to help inform staff when they are doing their research and reports and talking to other cities. So it’s kind of happening concurrently.

And then also with item four, having that PPM, that’s so then they get to see the final result and provide feedback on the final. So, I was trying to bookend it a little so that it was a bit at the beginning, but at the end, and then we can see all of that at those various stages. So, I hope that provides a bit more context. Does that change any of the advice for timing for staff of Q3 for realizing that’s the long-term plan in item number two?

Through the chair, if I understand, through Councillor Frank is that item number two, community engagement over the duration of the rest of the year to the fall is to continue to share thoughts on a long-term strategy and hear general comments and feedback on what the community would like to see. Councillor Frank indicates yes. So, I’ll let staff ponder Q2, 3, and more. And we’ll come back to you for wording.

I have Councillor Pribble next, and then Councillor Ferrera. Just making a comment and certainly to the public that both Council and the staff, we are aware of the needs for our recreational facilities to increase and people living downtown, old South. Their number one comment is for us, they want us to address the homelessness. And number two, especially when you talk to young people or the seniors, they say we don’t have enough recreational facilities.

So, I just wanna again reiterate that we are all aware very much that all the recreational facilities are tremendously important, and especially for what our society has gone through in the last couple of years due to COVID. When I look at these points and in terms of the time frame, I’m okay with to leave it there and including the indoor pool, but I certainly would take out under the three in point B, I would take out indoor or outdoor pool, so I would certainly take out the indoor because it is not in our master plan and our future strategy. So, that’s in terms of the three point B would take out the indoor and just one question for the staff. If there is any way we can get a copy of the detailed report of the current status that was done on the indoor, sorry, the in-ground pool.

The staff? Through the chair, it’s my understanding that item number five in the motion is that we report back to a future committee and protective services committee information committee with this information. Is any of that information available? Now, I guess from the fall report, when we looked at what went wrong with the pool or?

So, through the chair, I believe in our council report, the information about the failures of the pool have all came from the assessment report from the consultants and the engineers. And just a question, if any of the councils would like to see the actual report, is it available to us? The full engineering report of failures, I think, is what the council is referring to. I’m not sure how big it is if it’s confidential or if it’s public or fit needs interpretation for my professional.

Through the chair, it’s my understanding that it’s a confidential report submitted to city staff. And that’s where we are working right now to report back on the information and through a public report or a verbal update on this report at a future CAHPS committee meeting. Councilor Pribble? I’ll say so.

I will follow up as the staff after, thanks. Thank you, Councilor Ferrara. Thank you and through the chair. I was just trying to circle back when I put my hand up, just speaking to the timelines to Councilor Raman’s question, ‘cause that was a good question.

That was something that Councilor Pribble, Councilor Frank and Councilor and I were really discussing and the original crafting of the motion did have a lot of dates in there, but we actually removed some of the dates just because there’s a lot of unknowns. So we just wanted to put in the public engagement part, the first part and then the first section of the motion number one. We wanted to put some dates there just to be concrete on just kind of setting, I guess, the direction of how we would like to see this motion go, but we did leave the other dates just a little bit more flexible just because there’s unknowns and we just wanna make it work. So that’s why we removed the dates that you see after that.

So we are trying just to have something that actually works and is actually practical and realistic. So that’s why you see it the way it is. And yeah, I’ll just leave it there. Thank you.

Thank you. At this point, this exhausts my current speaker’s list. There’s been a mover and a seconder of the motions on the floor looking to committee to see if we want to change in the dates, any of the wording specifically of indoor versus outdoor or leave it to staff realizing that if the timelines are a bit behind, they will update committee or if it’s running ahead, which I can’t see. But we might get lucky.

So just a second. So I’ll leave that with committee members to think if you want anything changed ‘cause no motions have been, we’ve been talked about stuff, just not things on the floor. Deputy Mayor Lewis. I would like some clarity from the mover and seconder on to on the timeline because I’ve heard both Q3 and Q4 and I’ve heard Q2 and Q3.

So I just want to understand the full timeline. If we’re talking about going right till the end of the year, then we’d be talking about Q4. So I just want to get some clarity on that. And I did hear Councilor Pribble, who’s I believe the seconder on the motion suggest that 3B would be just a new location for a new pool rather than the indoor outdoor.

So I just want to see if that language was, I heard him indicate that, but I don’t know whether he actually changed that or not. So I just want some clarity on those two points. Okay, so we’re going to start with the timelines for two, just to the mover and seconder. Are you leaving it up to three and Q2, Q3 as listed in a showing on the screen?

And thank you through the chair. I don’t know how Councilor Pribble feels or Council Frank, but like I am open to adjusting just to make it work. The reason we put that in there is because we did want to get the community involved as soon as we can. But if there is a better time frame, I would be open for that.

To staff then, is there a better time frame or can you work with what we did or you understand our indication and you’ll do best to do this as quickly, thoroughly and meaningful as possible. Okay, I’m seeing a head nod from staff that they understand what we’re going for and they will not cut corners into as much as they can, as quickly as can, recognizing we’re also rolling to the multi-year budget for anyone who’s interested. Okay, so we have had knobs. We seem to have agreement on that.

And then 3B, Deputy Mayor Lewis, by no means does Councilor will have to answer, but he did mention indoor outdoor pool, looking to see if you have an interest in changing this wording, recognizing we could always do this at Council, but Council might be a long night, we don’t know what’s happening at Council, so if there’s a conference you should be had, I prefer it’s done here. And by all means, you don’t have to do anything or you can just ignore Deputy Mayor Lewis. No, as I already mentioned, so it’s according to our master plan, I would certainly take out the outdoor pool because we are not gonna be seeking a new location for our outdoor pool. Okay, so Councilor Perble is moving a motion to 3B, strike the wording of seeking out a new location for an outdoor pool with a removal of an indoor pool option, ‘cause it’s, sorry, oh my goodness, we’ve been here too long.

He’s removing an outdoor pool option because the Parks and Recreation Master Plan is only calling for indoor pool locations, looking to see if there’s so 3B on the screen on the wording, it’s loaded in E-Scribe, seeking out a new location for an indoor pool, removing the words outdoor. Is there a seconder for that? Is it friendly or is the, ‘cause the seconder moved it, is the mover deeming this friendly? Undecided yet, I just wanted to make some comments.

So we did have some extra wording in on that section, just for other things that we wanted to put in there, but we did remove it, the indoor versus outdoor. Yeah, we were aware that the master plan doesn’t necessarily speak to, or it doesn’t actually have any new outdoor facilities being brought in, but as was also stated by staff, it doesn’t, it also does not say the removal of outdoor pools. And just the way we see it is, this seems like it, you know, just because of the, the way our hands are tied and just, you know, with the environmental concerns and aspects that are involved here, our hands are kind of tied. So we do feel like this would be kind of an outlier from the master plan.

However, if that is something that would make this motion passed to remove the outdoor, regrettably I would, I would support it so many. Okay, let me ask this to staff. Are you aware of any municipalities building indoor outdoor pools that might be an indoor pool with doors or anything that you could slide open that would allow for open air and enjoyment of the outdoors, but still being covered and could be closed up, though it might create havoc with an HVAC system? I don’t know.

But can we have A and B or I’ve messed this up? Yes. I would like to change my proposal to seeking out a new location for a pool. No indoor, no outdoor, just a pool.

Oh, that’s sneaky. I like that. Are you favorable? Yes or no?

I can’t answer, yes or no. I just wanted to speak to the first part with the removal of the indoor, or the removal of the outdoor. No, he’s already withdrawn that. So he’s looking to straight the words, indoor and outdoor and it’s just pool and staff can come back with all options.

I know. It’s a win. Okay, can you just reiterate what was just said? Seeking out a new location for a pool.

That’s a family app. That’s a family app. Okay, that seems to be resolved. Excellent work, Councillor Fool.

So that was friendly. We’re changing that wording on the screen. Looking to see if there’s any other changes. The wording is going to be going back up.

Wording is up for a pool. So that seems to resolve the issues on to item two for the timing report coming back and the questions of a pool. Looking to committee to see if there’s anything further, Councillor Trusso, welcome. Thank you through the chair, very, very brief.

I mean, I came here today with a lot of questions and I planned on spending some time answering them. Everything I had has been answered and I just think this has been a really effective conversation. So I really wanna thank the Councillors who took it upon themselves to come in here with prepared comments. It’s rare that I’m left speechless.

I want that noted. I am gonna frame that, that I have pleased Councillor Trusso. So staff is good, what’s up with on the board? We’re all gonna on timelines.

The community is gonna get the consultation. So thank you to those in the galleries for coming out today. I don’t live in Old South, but my kids are bus to Victoria Public School. We swam at that pool.

I love that pool in the community. So I’m in so many of us, we’ve raised families here or we are raising families, we grew up here. We are right there with you. It’s not a decision as we said that staff want to bring us as they live here too.

This is also their community. So we know what it means. So it is a difficult conversation for everyone today. So looking to community, see if there’s any other questions or Councillor Ferrer.

Thank you, sorry, and through the chair. I just wanted to see that language updated on the motion just before anything. Refresh it, it’s on the board. It is.

  • Well, I did refresh it on mine. Okay, sorry. Okay, Councillor Ferrer is satisfied. It was just the word indoor/outdoors removed, just to simply leave pool for we have options coming back to us.

Last call for questions and comments from committee or visiting Councillors and those online. Councillor Hilliards with us, but his hand is not raised. So he’s good too. Councillor Hopkins is good.

He’s also joined us today. So it’s been moved seconded, calling the question. I’m closing the vote. The motion carries six to zero.

Thank you to everyone in the gallery for joining us today and there’ll be public participation opportunities coming forward. So please tell your neighbors as I know we’re all connected. And thank you to those in the gallery who spoke and send your communications. The communications that came with this have also been received as part of this report tonight.

That takes care of our consent agenda that we have no scheduled items. We do have two items for direction. 4.1 was request for delegation status for Jay Salisbury regarding subsidized bus pass program. And it is in regards to, they are here with us tonight as far as I know.

Perfect. So looking to committee for a mover and a seconder to allow this delegation tonight, moved by Councillor Ferrer, seconded by Councillor ramen, calling the question. Closing the vote, the motion carries five to zero with one abstain. Thank you, welcome.

For anyone following along, this is on page 196 of our agenda. Please come to the microphone for IT. We have a gentleman in the gallery. You have up to five minutes to speak.

Please proceed and you can move the microphone around if it’s not at a level that’s comfortable for you. And welcome. Hi there, my name is Jeffrey Salisbury. Thankful that you’re letting me speak here today.

I’m here to advocate for the disabled community. Currently, the subsidized bus pass program is the only option that the city offers to get some kind of discount on a bus pass for disabled people. And the discount is not very much. It’s still $61 a month for the bus pass.

And a single person on ODSP receives $1228 a month. And the average rents being $1,200 a month doesn’t really leave much. So nobody really has $61 that’s disabled to spend on the bus pass. So like right now, they’re spending money to put in a rapid transit system, which is great, I think.

But if the people who need public transit, the most disabled people can’t afford to use the bus, I don’t see what the point is. I have a few suggestions for how they could help with this. Either they could offer a free bus pass, a greater discount, or maybe if a bus pass with unlimited travel isn’t possible, maybe they could give a card with a certain amount of free trips per month loaded onto it. I don’t know, that’s my suggestion.

I don’t know if that’s doable. So thank you, that’s really all I have to say. Thank you for joining us this evening and waiting for the other day that’s who went first. I’m going to go and ask staff for those counselors and for the public’s information.

LTC works at arms length from council, our two appointed counselors to that committee is Councilor Ferra and Councilor Pribble. And that’s the work they do in that area. The subsidies do get approved by council and go to LTC to subsidize those programs. There’s a student bus pass program that’s reduced and this one.

So looking to staff, having heard our delegates’ comments, looking to see if there’s an update you can provide today for everyone’s information. And if this was to have any multi-year budget, where would we have this conversation with a report and meaningful dialogue? Thank you and through you chair, that’s correct. Council has approved one of the subsidy programs, income related subsidized transit for individuals 18 or over.

It’s based on a low income cutoff after tax. And currently we pay 36%. So a bus pass, Mr. Salisbury is correct, is $95.

The city pays $34 and the user must pay $61 a month. As part of the next multi-year budget process, civic administration will be evaluating this current income related program. And the evaluation will look at both program affordability and barriers to participation. And then based on the findings of this evaluation, we will recommend changes to the program and they will be brought forward for consideration through a budget business case through the multi-year budget process.

Thank you. Thank you for that. My speakers list started with Mayor Morgan and then Council Troso. Yes, so first off chair, I wanna thank you for going to our staff for a good overview of how the incentive programs would change in the process under which we would review and assess them.

I wanna speak from just a different angle and our speaker mentioned it today. And that is, there is a challenge here with the rates under both Ontario Works and ODSP that are paid in this province to allow people to actually get food, shelter and transit and where they need to go. And I think at the same time as we can consider suggestions and changes to our incentive programs, the municipality cannot be filling the gap on what are below standard and below reasonable rates for government support at the provincial level and that our advocacy also has to be in part to ensure that in the province of Ontario, if someone has provincial supports, they need to be able to afford to have a place to live, have some food and be able to get around. And that is not the situation for many people in the province and many people in our city.

So I just don’t want that to be lost, that we can certainly do the review as Ms. Smith mentioned, we can look at our incentive programs already, a fairly generous incentive program compared to the current rate. But at the same time, we have to continue to have that dialogue with the province and our elected representatives at that level to say, you’re not paying enough for your systems programs ‘cause people can’t afford to get some of their basic needs. Thank you.

I’ll go to Councilor Troso and then Councilor Hopkins. Well, I fully agree through the chair. I fully agree with what you’ve said. I don’t want to leave our most vulnerable of potential transit riders, though, in sort of like this political sort of twilight zone between what we’re saying the province should be doing and what the province is not going to be doing.

And I do think at the end, as advocate as we must, and hopefully we’ll hear some more about how that’s going to be effectively done, I think in the end, we have to be prepared to make some very difficult decisions about extending the types of subsidies, exactly the way the speaker is talking about today because we can’t, and I’m talking about riders who apparently, if I understood the presentation, these are not quite paratransit riders, but these are people that have other needs who can very much be taking the bus. I really want to see this ridership increased, even if it means we have to make some of the difficult budgetary decisions. Thank you. Thank you, Councilor Hopkins.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair, for recognizing me and thank you to the committee for allowing me to speak. I want to thank the delegation too for coming forward. I know sometimes it’s very difficult to come to committee and have these conversations, but I really do appreciate you being here and us having a better understanding about how our subsidy programs work. Looking forward to the four-year budget.

I know Ms. Smith spoke to that and the work that needs to be done, but I also want to follow up with the mayor’s comments about the provincial subsidies. We can’t do it alone and the advocacy there. When you are on a subsidized income with rents, costs of food, how you pay your transportation, there’s very little left.

So there are many challenges in our community with people trying to make ends meet. And again, thank you for coming here and allowing us to have this conversation. Thank you. Looking to see if there’s any other speakers.

At this time, I would need a mover in a second or then to receive our delegation this evening. Moved by Councillor Stevenson. Seconded by Councillor Pribble calling the question. Councillor Stevenson closing the vote.

The motion carries six to zero. Thank you to our delegation and we’ll be dealing with this later the summer as we go into the multi-year budget process, looking at what can be done and the levels that we’re going to set the subsidized transit passes at. Our next scheduled items for direction is item 4.2 within your communication package on page 197. Mayor Morgan, Councillor Hopkins and Frank have put in a delegation for support, for resolutions to end homelessness from the Ontario big city mayors and the associated municipalities of Ontario looking to committee to hear our delegation.

Moved by Mayor Morgan. He would like to talk. And seconded by Councillor ramen calling the question. No, then I don’t need to listen to you.

(laughing) Sorry, this is what happens when I sit here for a couple hours straight. So apologies, but I’ll go to the mayor. Do you want to introduce this one since you don’t need to be a delegation, but you still have five minutes? I was just waiting to see if you were going to let me talk.

Despite being on the committee, let me introduce this for colleagues. And at the conclusion of my remarks, I’m happy to move the motion of support. Please proceed, don’t mind to be Marlous. Yeah, so at the conclusion of my remarks, I’d be happy to move a motion of support for the attached resolutions to our letter.

As you know, the council has its strategy on with the health and homelessness approach, but we’re also working with our external organizations on developing common strategies within those groups. So the Ontario big city mayor is a group that I sit on and with the support of our city manager and the CAO of Kingston, Mayor Patterson and I, moved the attached resolution at OBCM, which was unanimously approved by that group, carving out OBCM’s lobby position within the space with the provincial government and will proceed along those lines. At the same time, I know Councillor Hopkins and I’ll let her speak about the AMO process is working through that organization too on related issues and they also have suggested resolutions and motions. And although our work, the motion at OBCM and the AMO motion may be slightly different, I think it’s important that we provide our support for all of them because we certainly have our own approach and plan, but it is important for us to provide a common voice within those lobby organizations and as much support as possible from the membership so that those positions can be advocated upon effectively.

So that’s why in discussion with Councillor Hopkins and Councillor Frank, as we talked about the external work that was being done, we thought it appropriate for Council to see the motions that are being passed at those levels and seek your endorsement of them as we continue with our work externally. And I know it’s not always been done that way, but I think Councillor Hopkins and I have talked about, we have a very collaborative council, we have a lot of issues that are really important to the London that require very close alignment with our external lobby organizations to achieve what we’d like to achieve. And that more often you’ll see us come before various committees with information about what’s happening within those organizations as well as seeking your support and endorsement for various items like you see today. I would let Councillor Hopkins through the chair of course, provide commentary on that she would like to add on this, but I’m happy to move a motion of support for the attached resolutions.

So I have a mover in Mayor Morgan, a seconder in Councillor Raman. My speakers, I was gonna go to Councillor Hopkins next. So welcome to committee and thank you for the correspondence on our agenda. Thank you, Madam Chair.

And just following up on Mayor’s comments, these are two resolutions, one from the OBCM. I’ll just speak on behalf of AMO. And as you can see, the resolution for homelessness, it is a priority at AMO to deal with homelessness. In fact, AMO just sent out an open letter to the provincial government.

And as you all know, Thursday is provincial budget. So we are really, the open letter that was sent was that we are inviting the province to take the lead on addressing the homelessness crisis. I think it’s really, really important. I think each and every one of us on council understands homelessness is an issue.

To do what we need to do, we need provincial advocacy funding. One of the things AMO is really asking the province, which is to acknowledge that homelessness in Ontario, and as we know, we’re not the only city that is experiencing homelessness. It’s right throughout all the municipalities, most of the municipalities, cities and towns in Ontario. Acknowledging that homelessness in Ontario is a social economic and health crisis, committing to ending homelessness in Ontario, and working with a broad range of municipal, community, health, indigenous, and economic partners to develop resource and implement an action plan to achieve this important goal.

I think we can all agree and understand the importance of encouraging the province to acknowledge it. And wearing my councillor hat, and as you can see in the covering letter, we’re asking council to support both of the attached resolutions and to, again, encourage the government of Ontario to demonstrate multi-ministerial leadership. I think that’s really, really important to understand that on this critical issue and really looking at the committee for your support here. Thank you, looking to committee or visiting Councillors Brainer, comments on this item of 4.2% Councillor Hopkins.

And I just want to, working with councillor Frank too, I know she’s been watching AMO as well, and thank you for your support. Thank you. Seeing no further comments or questions on this, thank you for your work that you do, as this usually goes widely unseen at council and in the community, ‘cause you’re working across provincial lines, calling the question. Supposing the vote, the motion carries, six to zero.

Thank you, that moved us into deferred matters and additional business, I haven’t been made aware of any, but checking to see if there is any. Okay, seeing none, that would move us into an adjournment, which I would need a mover and a seconder, moved by councillor Stevenson, seconded by councillor Pribble, hand vote of all in favour of adjournment. I was told yes, that counts. So thank you and have a wonderful day, and we’ll see you again soon.