March 3, 2025, at 1:00 PM

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The meeting is called to order at 1:00 PM; it being noted that Councillor P. Van Meerbergen was in remote attendance.

1.   Disclosures of Pecuniary Interest

That it BE NOTED that no pecuniary interests were disclosed.

2.   Consent

Moved by A. Hopkins

Seconded by J. Pribil

That Consent Item 2.2 BE APPROVED.

Motion Passed (5 to 0)

2.2   Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act Report for the Calendar Year 2024

2025-03-03 Staff Report - Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Moved by A. Hopkins

Seconded by J. Pribil

That, on the recommendation of the Deputy City Manager, Finance Supports, the report regarding the Public Sector Salary Disclosures Act Report for the Calendar Year 2024 BE RECEIVED for information purposes.

Motion Passed

2.1   2024 Statement of Remuneration and Expenses for Elected and Appointed Officials

2025-03-03 Staff Report - 2024 Statement of Remuneration

That the following actions be taken with respect to the Staff Report - 2024 Statements of Remuneration:

a)    in accordance with Section 284 of the Municipal Act, 2001, the Statements of Remuneration and Expenses for Elected and Appointed Officials, as appended to the staff report dated March 3, 2025 as Appendix “A” and Appendix “B”, BE RECEIVED for information;

i)    Civic Administration BE DIRECTED to change the format of all future reports to show remuneration, benefits, and expense amounts separately (without totaling these distinct items) and that Civic Administration report benefits using the definition of taxable benefits according to Canada Revenue Agency guidelines.

b)    in accordance with City Council resolution of March 2012, the annual report on the Mayor’s Office expenditures BE RECEIVED for information; and

c)    in accordance with City Council Travel and Business Expenses Policy, the Statement of Travel Expenses for Senior Administration Officials, as appended to the staff report dated March 3, 2025 as Appendix “C” and “D,” BE RECEIVED for information;

it being noted that the Infrastructure and Corporate Services Committee received a communication dated February 28, 2025 from Councillor S. Stevenson with respect to this matter.

ADDITIONAL VOTES:

Moved by C. Rahman

Seconded by J. Pribil

That, on the recommendation of the Deputy City Manager, Finance Supports the following actions be taken:

a)    in accordance with Section 284 of the Municipal Act, 2001, the Statements of Remuneration and Expenses for Elected and Appointed Officials, as appended to the staff report dated March 3, 2025 as Appendix “A” and Appendix “B”, BE RECEIVED for information:

b)    in accordance with City Council resolution of March 2012, the annual report on the Mayor’s Office expenditures BE RECEIVED for information; and

c)    in accordance with City Council Travel and Business Expenses Policy, the Statement of Travel Expenses for Senior Administration Officials, as appended to the staff report dated March 3, 2025 as Appendix “C” and “D,” BE RECEIVED for information;

it being noted that the Infrastructure and Corporate Services Committee received a communication dated February 28, 2025 from Councillor S. Stevenson with respect to this matter.

Moved by C. Rahman

Seconded by J. Pribil

That the motion be amended to include a new part a) i) to read as follows:

i) Civic Administration BE DIRECTED to change the format of all future reports to show remuneration, benefits and expense amounts separately (without totaling these distinct items) and that Civic Administration report benefits using the definition of taxable benefits according to Canada Revenue Agency guidelines.

Motion Passed (5 to 0)

Moved by C. Rahman

Seconded by J. Pribil

That the motion, as amended, BE APPROVED

Motion Passed (5 to 0)

3.   Scheduled Items

None.

4.   Items for Direction

None.

5.   Deferred Matters/Additional Business

None.

6.   Confidential 

None.

7.   Adjournment

Moved by A. Hopkins

Seconded by S. Franke

That the meeting BE ADJOURNED.

Motion Passed

The meeting adjourned at 1:31 PM.

Full Transcript

Transcript provided by Lillian Skinner’s London Council Archive. Note: This is an automated speech-to-text transcript and may contain errors. Speaker names are not identified.

View full transcript (45 minutes)

Good afternoon, everyone. We are going to get started with the fifth meeting of the Infrastructure and Corporate Services Committee. We’ll begin with a land acknowledgement. The city of London is situated on the traditional lands of the Anishinaabe, Haudenosaunee, Lenapawik, and Adawandran.

We honor and respect the history, languages, and culture of the diverse indigenous people who call this territory home. The city of London is currently home to many First Nation, Métis, and Inuit today. As representatives of the people of the city of London, we are grateful to have the opportunity to work and live in this territory. The city of London is committed to making every effort to provide alternate formats of communication support for meetings upon request.

To make a request specific to this meeting, please contact ICSC@london.ca, or 519-661-2489, extension 2425. With that, I’ll look for any disclosures of culinary interest. Okay, seeing none, we have two items on the consent agenda, 2.1 and 2.2. I’ve not been asked to pull any of these items at this time.

I’m just looking to members of committee for a motion, and then we can begin discussion. Oh, I do have a request, sorry, I should say. I do have a request to deal with 2.1 separately because we do have an amendment to 2.1. So then we’ll take 2.2 first, which is the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act report for the calendar year 2024.

Councillor Hopkins has moved that looking for a seconder, Councillor Pribble, and looking for any discussion on 2.2. Councillor Frank. Thank you, yes, and I’m just wondering, do we ever get an itemized like Excel spreadsheet list of all the names of the people and their titles and the amount, just ‘cause I sit on some other boards and that’s the style and format that they do it with those ones? Ms.

Berbone. Thank you through the chair. That we provide to the province. It’s a very, very large file, ‘cause obviously the city of London’s a lot bigger in the prescribed format, and then we’re responsible for submitting a number of the boards and commissions.

So typically we’ve traditionally reported at a high level, and then when that is disclosed through the provincial listing, then that is available to the public. Hello, Councillor. Thank you. Okay, so we have a number of Councillors online as well.

I will say that a committee is all here and Councillor Van Mire, we’re gonna just join us online. We also have Councillor Palosa and Councillor McAllister online. Just wanted to make sure everyone was aware who is here. I saw Councillor Hopkins’ hand.

Go ahead. Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair, for recognizing that. I just wanted to follow up with Councillor Frank’s questioning around the provincial listing. Do we know when that is put out to the public, that provincial list of public employees?

Ms. Berbone. Thank you through the chair. Typically it’s done before the end of the month.

Traditionally, the date has varied. It could be a couple days prior up to the end of the month. So is that the province’s discretion when that list is actually made public? But certainly, traditionally, we seem to see it a couple days prior to the end of the month.

Fellow Councillor? No, but many thanks for that information, thank you. Thank you. So still on item 2.2, any other members of committee before I go to visiting Councillors?

Seeing none, I’ll go to Councillor Stevenson. Thank you and through the chair. I just had a question following up. I know we’ve had some emails about this, but when we, as a city, contract out to someone like LEDC, something that was in-house and has now been contracted out as a third party, now those salaries no longer fall under this reporting.

And I just wondered, at the time when we do this kind of thing, we’re removing departments outside. Is there any thought to what happens in terms of the disclosure regarding salaries? ‘Cause we did talk about it when LEDC came through for renewal and I was saying that we have no budget, no financial statements, and no way to know what salaries are being paid with a corporation that’s 100% municipally funded. Ms.

Bourbon? Thank you to the chair. So because they are not city of London employees, they don’t fall under the provincial public sector reporting. If it’s traditionally all of our purchase of service are treated exactly the same and that their purchase of service, there’s one item in the budget in terms of what those services are.

So it’s not information that the city of London would have. We’re not paying those employees directly and there’s no obligation for them to participate, but it’s definitely not a requirement through the provincial reporting system, which we’re obligated to report with. Councillor? Thank you, just to follow up then.

And so I guess at the time when, and maybe I misunderstand it, but my understanding was that was part of the city and then was made to be a separate entity and maybe that’s not true. So I’m getting some funny looks, so maybe I’m off track there. But I just wondered, at what point would it, is it of an issue when we talk about, because the premise behind this, and I know it’s provincial around reporting out $100,000 a year or more, it’s a provincial requirement. But when it is 100% funded by municipal tax dollars, I just wondered, is there any way to, from a taxpayer perspective in terms of transparency, report out in terms of salaries on an untendered contract like that?

Okay, I will go to Ms. Barbone. I know, I will try to narrow the scope a little bit more back to the report that’s in front of us. So my understanding of what you’re asking is perhaps more related to why certain entities are not reported than versus what is reported here within the report?

Yeah, just wanting to achieve the result, which is being transparent with taxpayers about the salaries that are being paid with tax dollars. Thank you, I’ll look to Ms. Barbone and see if you have any further comment. So organizations through the chair that are funded provincially, excuse me, fall under the obligation to report, therefore the city of London is responsible to report because we receive in a number of the boards and commissions receive.

LADC is not an agency board or a commission. So the city of London, although we may purchase service, has no ability or obligation to have that information or report that information based on a purchase of service agreement. The obligation is specifically with respect to the municipality itself. I can’t speak to when LADC was incorporated, but certainly within at least the last 20 years, they’ve not been part of the city to my understanding and recollection.

So in terms of what that decision was to move them and to their own corporation, I’m not able to comment on. Okay, thank you. I did notice that they were on the listing back 20 years ago and now that those salaries are no longer shared with the R publicly, so just a note. Thank you.

Any other members, visiting members that would like an opportunity to comment on 2.2 before we vote? Seeing no hands, I’ll open the vote. I’ll vote yes. Opposed in the vote, motion carries, five to zero.

Thank you. Okay, we will look to move to item 2.1. We have a motion that was also circulated around some changes to the motion that was provided in the report. I’m gonna look to Councillor Frank to take over as chair so that I can move the adjusted motion.

Thank you and I have chair and I recognize Councillor Raman. So Councillor Frank, look to move the main motion first and then I’m happy to put that on the floor and then move there. Sure, so you’re moving the main motion without any amendments at this time? Okay, but I’m just confirming you’re moving the main motion without any amendments at this time.

Is that the motion moving? So I’m looking to move it and then I’ll amend it from there. Okay, a seconder for the main motion as included in the staff report and seeing Councillor Priba, so that’s moved and seconded and then would you like to make an amendment to that? Yes, I would.

And I’ll just pull up the language one second. Okay, if you’d like I can read it out and then I’ll look for a seconder, that the motion be amended to include a new part A, I to read as follows, I and that civic administration be directed to change the format of all three remuneration benefits, expenses to the corporations such as conventions, registrations and ward expenses amounts separately without totaling these distinct items and that civic administration look at removing the employer health tax and employer portion of CPP from the benefit amount reported. It being noted that the ward expenses accounts do not represent additional income for Councillors and are regulated by a separate policy. Sorry, just to clarify, sorry, if you don’t mind.

Sure, yeah, it’s just being updated, yeah, okay. Sorry, yeah, we’re just updating the update. Is that the amendment that you’re hoping to have? Someone that’s on the screen?

Yes, and I’ll just read it out. So that the motion be amended to include and read as follows, I and that civic administration be directed to change the format of all future reports to show remuneration benefits and expenses amounts separately without totaling these distinct items and that civic administration report benefits using the definition of a taxable benefit according to CRA guidelines. Thank you, and do I seconder? Okay, Councillor Pribble, so it’s moved and seconded.

It’s on the floor, would you like to speak to it first? Okay, Councillor Ramen. Thank you, and through you, Madam Presiding Officer. So I wanted to comment generally on the report and then specifically on this amendment, but I’ll go specific to the amendment.

So I’d like to thank Councillor Stevenson for providing the added information that’s in our agenda and then for consulting on the amendment that’s in front of you. I think it’s really important for clarity and transparency purposes to be able to convey to the public exactly what it is that Councillors are paid and how we’re remunerated and what expenses are accounted for. I do not want to leave the public thinking that there is in any way, shape or form, Councillors pocketing additional money that is allocated for expenses to their ward. And so I think that the way that it’s reported helps to clarify that as we move forward with what’s in this motion.

Because I do think that perhaps the way that it’s reported via the media, it sometimes makes it seem as though we are taking home more than perhaps we actually are. So I think the Councillor for that, I appreciate the comparative work and looking at what was done in other cities. I think it’s helpful. Again, I think it’s really important that the public understand that when we’re on city business and that when we’re traveling, when we’re hosting ward meetings, when we’re hosting a recreational swim or skate in our wards, these are not benefits that we are necessarily taking home nor additional cash that we are receiving.

And so I think that’s really important to reflect what it is that Councillors are being paid. Thank you and any other members of committee who would like to speak to this, Councillor Per beau? Thank you, Mr. Chair, Presiding Officer to the staff.

I did have an opportunity yesterday to show this appendix eight to few of the Londoners. And out of curiosity, I did ask them the expenses, how do they understand it or how they read it? And none of them stated that it will be anything associated with our ward expenses and the way we are operating our offices, including the website newsletters et cetera. And I think there’s the important part that our person would like us to reflect.

So there is the understanding that these expenses are not part of their remuneration, not part of the additional income for our personal use. So again, I would like this to be, and maybe there’s a question to the staff, how could we do it? Because right now, as I said, the few Londoners I showed it to, they feel that these expenses are actually our personal and it increases our personal income. Thank you.

Thank you. So then perhaps I’ll look to staff, the question being what would the change in reports look like to ensure that the general public doesn’t see the ward expenses as a take-home salary? Is that okay, then through to staff? Thank you, to the Presiding Officer.

So the report lays out specifically remuneration as well as expenses. The report is not intended to highlight in any way expenses are part of remuneration. They are in fact reported separately. The reason that they are reported as expenses and listed on the same document is because of the requirement through the Municipal Act for the Treasurer to present that information to Council.

So certainly there’s some discretion and how the presentation of that information can look. So certainly as per the resolution, there is an ability to remove the totals. There’s also the ability to report two separate schedules, one that shows the expenses in accordance with the Municipal Act as well as a separate one that shows what the remuneration is, also in accordance with the Municipal Act regulations. So certainly that’s something that we can take back and look at creating some different presentation for the following year based on, should this pass a Council.

Thank you. Any follow up from Council Perable? Just a follow up. So thank you for the proposal.

So again, before this will go out, again, we will get without setting a specific date timeline right now when this will be presented back to the proposal to us, it will be done before the next one is published, correct? Sorry, Steph. Through the Presiding Officer, yes, we would certainly add the deadline to disclose this information is March 31st. That’s why we have a special ICSC committee meeting today.

So certainly next year, when we look to bring forward this report, we would look to amend the presentation. Thank you very much. No more questions. Thank you.

Thank you. And I have Councillor Hopkins on the list and she’s on committee. And then I do see the Deputy Mayor online and I believe Councillor Pleasant and Councillor Stevenson, but over to Councillor Hopkins first. Thank you.

And I just have a question, maybe a follow up to what Ms. Annalise Veron talked about with the report coming back to us. And in the spirit of transparency and accountability, would there be an opportunity to show more of what the expenses look like to the public, the breakdown? I know we reported quarterly on the website, but there is really, and then we get the final amount, but is there an opportunity to have that breakdown sort of reported in a new format?

So it shows exactly what the expenses look like, or is that sort of not where this motion wants to go? I know the concern from the Councillor was more about that total amount looking like Councillors are making that amount of money, but I just think it’s a great opportunity if we’re gonna change the format of showing what those expenses look like as well. Thank you to staff. Thank you for the chair.

I’m not sure I entirely understand your question, Councillor. So right now there’s a couple of different bylaws that are responsible for how information is reported. So there is, as noted in the report, the number of the bylaws, one of which is specifically with respect to the council policy that directs the expenditures to be posted on the website on a quarterly basis, that is taking place and continues. Specifically, the report out today is in accordance with the Municipal Act.

So all we are doing is listing the total expenditures that then is including all of the expenditures for the boards and commissions, which is not information that we would have had during the year to fulfill the Municipal Act obligations that the city treasurer must do. So we’re not looking to expand that to provide more detailed. We would just have separate statements to break apart potentially what is remuneration versus what is expenses. Hopefully that clarifies.

Thank you, Councillor Hopkins. Yes, I think you answered my question then. So the only avenue that we have to report the breakdown of council expenses is on the website. There’s no other mechanism for reporting.

So thank you for that. Thank you. And perhaps I’ll go over to Councillor Stevenson, and then I’ll go back online to the Deputy Mayor and Councillor Ploza, but Councillor Stevenson first. Okay, thank you.

And just thank you to committee for allowing me to do this work through committee. The goal of this motion was to clarify things for the public, to ensure that we keep the same transparency and openness, but that the information is relayed in a way that the general public understands it. In the private world, corporate executives have expense accounts, where you’re whining and dining and doing other things, and there’s maybe the thought that that’s what this is, and it isn’t. So just clarity around that.

Same with benefits, taxable benefits again, in the private world can be spouses accompanying on trips and stuff like that, and that is not what this is. It’s health and dental and life and pension. So just having that clarity for the public, I think really helps that they know exactly what it is that we’re making in a way that’s easy to not be misconstrued. The thought on what Councillor Hopkins said around the details on the Councillor expenses.

In Appendix A, there’s a link to the Mayor’s expense report, and I wonder if there could be a link to the Councillor expenses, so that someone who’s looking at it here, if they wanted to see those details, could find it easily. To staff. Thank you through the chair. That’s certainly something that we can expand the links to where they are.

They’re all available publicly, so we can certainly look to include that also, so that it’s all one stop shopping and reference to the existing information. Thank you, back to Councillor Stevenson. All right, and then I see Deputy Mayor online if you’d like to speak next. I can go next, although I think Councillor Gloza had her hand up first, so I’m willing to defer to her, but whatever you determine about a presiding officer.

Sure, I can’t see her just ‘cause I’m sitting over here with that second screen, so I’ll go to you just ‘cause your camera’s on now. Okay, so first of all, I will say thank you to Councillor Stevenson for doing the late work on this, and for doing some consultation with fellow Councillors as well, very much appreciated, very much agree with what everyone has said so far. Like Councillor Preble, I had the opportunity yesterday to have a conversation with someone at an arena about this prior to a hockey game, and it was the same sort of scenario. The understanding from the public perception was that all of this was on top of the ward expense account, and yet the way it’s presented, it makes it seem as though the ward expense account is money that we get to put in our pocket, and certainly holding a town hall meeting, renting a pool for Canada Day, or a family day skater, things like that, sending out mailings to our residents to inform them of what’s happening in the neighbourhood.

I really strongly object to the portrayal, and I know that staff aren’t attempting to do this. I think it’s really disingenuous when the media runs headlines, half of city Councillors paid over $100,000. We weren’t paid that. That’s what it may have cost to have.

Our offices did all the work we do, but that was not paid we were putting in our pockets. And so when the media is putting out headlines like that, it really confuses and misleads the public. And I think having a very clear report that separates the two into two separate schedules really makes a lot of sense. Again, I appreciate the work Councillors have done on this.

I will be fully supportive of this. The only question I would like to direct through you Madam Presiding Officer to our staff, understanding that year-end numbers get crunched after December 31st, and you’ve got to meet this March 31st deadline. And there are expenses that roll in from December that don’t show up until January. And so getting all of this together for a regular committee agenda is not generally possible.

Would there be an opportunity for staff to bring back a draft to a future ICSC meeting to show us what the new format would look like based on this year’s numbers, rather than waiting until next year to bring forward a report that we haven’t seen the formatting of. Is it possible to get this year’s report submitted to the province to meet our deadlines, but then redrafted with the new format to show us what it will look like for next year? Thank you, I will ask a question to staff. Through the chairs.

So certainly our main priority is going to be until June to move forward with our year-end financial statements. And our external audits have begun. So certainly we won’t have capacity in the first half of the year, but certainly closer to the end of the year, maybe something that we would be able to provide a sample draft to bring forward. But I believe the direction is clear.

So I think I’m not anticipating that there’s going to be a significant difference, even by removing the totals and separating those off. I think you can envision pretty clearly, but it’s certainly something that if the council wishes us to bring back, we can aim to do so. Thank you. And I might just follow up and ask, would you require a direction to do that?

Or is this a sufficient conversation to have a draft in the fall or winter? Thank you to the chair. Certainly, I don’t think we need the direction if that’s council’s desire and you wish to see that come forward. We can provide a draft statement to bring that forward and presentation that we’re anticipating to do.

I think based on what I’m hearing, it should be fairly straightforward to be able to provide that mock up and present that to the council. Great, thank you. And back to the deputy mayor. And thank you for anticipating my question about whether or not direction would be needed.

I’m satisfied with that. And I just wanna share with staff in terms of timelines. Yes, but I don’t expect it to be in a meeting or two if it comes back September, October, even November. I’m fine with that.

I don’t feel a need to put any specific deadline on it. I would just like to see it so that if there’s any questions or any other suggestions that we have to offer staff, they have those in advance of next year’s report coming forward so that we can offer those in a way that’s a little less urgent than what we’re dealing with today. All right, thank you. And then Councilor Palosa, I believe was next.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Presoning Officer, question three to staff based on colleagues’ discussions. I think I already know the answer, but asking anyways, I know we’re on municipal act deadlines of the end of the month, but there’s still a council meeting between now and then realizing the report might be more of a rudimentary separation. Is it possible to have those changes made and brought forward prior to the next council meeting? Thank you, I’ll direct that to staff.

Through the presenting officer, that would be tomorrow. So there’s no way we could turn this around that quickly. Thank you, back to Councilor Palosa. Thank you, just knowing that it was the direction a council want to go, just was not missing opportunity to ask, but completely understand and accept that answer.

Thank you. All right, thank you. I’m seeing no notes in chambers that has their hands up. I’m not sure if anyone else online does, please turn on your camera so I can see you, but I’m not seeing any there either.

All right, so then, I mean, if folks are okay, I might just do a quick comment from the chair. I agree with everything that’s been said. I also have had a couple residents who were shocked to believe that I took home $100,000. I had to rest or assure them that that was not the case, but unfortunately, I think, given perhaps how it’s been covered in the media, that is what people are thinking in the community.

I think it’s good that we’re having this discussion to make sure that we can fact check folks, but seeing no other comments, then I will call the vote. Councillor Van Wiebope. - Oh, yes. Closing the vote, motion carries, five to zero.

Thank you, and I returned the chair back to Councilor Raman. Sorry, okay, yes, I realize that was just the amendment. All right, so now then we go back to the original motion, now has an amendment to it. It was moved and seconded by Councilor Raman and Councilor Pribble, is there any further discussion on the original motion plus now the amendment?

No. All right, seeing no hands go up. Oh, okay, sorry, Councilor Palosa. Sorry, perhaps— - Sorry, it was a residual hand.

Residual hand, sorry about that. All right, so seeing no further discussion, then we’ll open the vote for that motion. Oh, yes. Closing the vote, motion carries, five to zero.

Thank you, now I’ll return the chair. Thank you so much. Okay, with that, we have no items under deferred matters in additional business that I’ve been made aware of, no confidential, so I’ll look for a motion. Oh, no scheduled items, sorry.

Sorry, Councilor Hopkins, go ahead. Oh, just for motion to observe, okay. Councilor Hopkins is beating me to it. Motion to adjourn, Councilor Hopkins and Councillor Frank, I’ll buy a hand.

Motion carries. Thanks everyone, have a great day.